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How to Apologize

philomousos.blogspot.com

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Re: How to Apologize

#11

Post by DanielBMarkham »

This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other.

I'm not going to try to defend these bozos, so let's try some crazy made-up example.

For instance, I might have an opinion that we should bring back slavery. A totally offensive opinion, yes, but dammit, I'm entitled to have it. In this case I very well may be sorry that I brought it up on MLK day, or that I interjected it in your discussion about feeding the poor, but I'm not really sorry for feeling the way I do.

That's okay -- the part about differentiating between being sorry for being rude and being sorry for ideas, not the part about supporting slavery. People should never have to be sorry for expressing their opinions, only expressing them poorly.

We need to make sure we are not trying to tell people how to think. We can challenge them, call them out, ask them questions, demand an apology for their being rude or offensive, yes, but we change people's thinking by gentle persuasion, not by public mockery or lynch mobs. If we're not careful, the only thing we're going to teach misogynistic youngsters is to bullshit on the net better. And that's not good for anybody.

That's why the apology was weak -- because it was for the wrong reasons, shame instead of understanding. (And I don't think beating them up in public further is going to do much good. In fact, I think we've long past the point of actually doing something useful with this story.)

Or to put this in a business context, it's okay to have policies people don't like, and it's certainly appropriate to apologize if you've expressed your policies in a way that offended people. But it's not okay for a mob to dictate to you what your policies should be. They're two different things.

Re: How to Apologize

#12

Post by mcherm »

rbarooah wrote: post #2

This a good analysis. I wonder though whether over time this kind of understanding is just going to become a formula or best practice that ends up being handled by a PR department. If it does, then how will we detect an authentic apology from a formulaic one?

How, you ask, can we tell if a smooth-sounding apology is genuine? Well, that "What we're going to do about it" part really shines through here. That's not just coming from the PR department, or if it is then it's a rather unusual company. Besides, if the apology is made sincerely and publicly and efforts are made to prevent a recurrence then I'm not sure I CARE whether it is "genuine" -- the effect is the same either way.

Re: How to Apologize

#13

Post by DanielBMarkham »

orblivion wrote: post #10

I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, I wonder if somebody could give me some perspective. There are two conflicting things I don't like here. In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. In most cases I really would say "oh come on lighten up." On the other hand, among us computer programmers, there's so much social ineptness (and perhaps outright disrespect f…

I can't and won't defend these guys, but I remember my teenage years, and I remember being pretty shallow when it came to women. Looking around, I suspect many other males were the same way.

I got over this by slowly growing up, not by having a crowd tell me I was an ass. I think if the crowd had pressured me back then, I'd tell them to go jump in a lake.

These guys were wrong, no two ways about it. My concern is that we've created a system where kids can't go out and get drunk, make racy comments about girls -- basically act like kids -- without the entire world coming down on their head. Everything you do online lasts forever. That doesn't sound like a good thing at all.

Re: How to Apologize

#15

Post by kristiandupont »

This is a very interesting topic. The thing is that an apology doesn't really make any sense unless the person offering it is actually sorry (for what happened, not that they got caught).

I see three different kinds of cases:

1) You do something that has a consequence that you didn't intend and you immediately regret it, like spilling coffee on someone.

2) You say or do something that you don't find offensive until you realize that the other person has a reason to be offended ("my mother is a redhead, you know!")

3) You say or do something you don't find offensive, but the other person does.

Now for #1, the apology will be sincere and it's easy to offer. With #2 it's harder but still possible but if like #3 you basically don't think you did anything wrong but just think the other party is uptight or over sensitive, it doesn't really make any sense to make an apology. People do all the time obviously and it can be the only way to move forward.

Re: How to Apologize

#16

Post by shrikant »

jeswin wrote: post #9

"Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you." I suppose it varies with culture, but I can't imagine any of the women I know getting upset about that line. So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything? Personally, even if I were the butt of a mildly racist joke I would probably enjoy the joke than be offend…

Like orblivion in his comment [1], I too didn't initially understand what was so sexist about that line, then I clicked through to the Cloudmine blog-post on the issue, which had a screenshot of the event posting in question [2].

This made it clearer: that line is not addressing women, it's addressing the event attendees and listing "Women" as one of the perks, because "friendly (female) event staff" get beers for the attendees. It's difficult to believe how a company can offer up "women" as a 'perk', and not expect the reaction that followed.

On a completely different note: it's extremely annoying having to hunt down links when they have exactly the same styling as the surrounding text, like in the Cloudmine blog. [3]

--

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3733914

[2] https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.p...

[3] http://blog.cloudmine.me/post/19639692371/sexism-in-tech

Re: How to Apologize

#17

Post by mtoddh »

jeswin wrote: post #9

"Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you." I suppose it varies with culture, but I can't imagine any of the women I know getting upset about that line. So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything? Personally, even if I were the butt of a mildly racist joke I would probably enjoy the joke than be offend…

So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything

Yes - and many people are going to see this as a good thing (and some won't). I think the best route is to never include any references to gender, (or race, or any hot button issue) in any of your promotional material, slides, talks or whatever. Even if it's intended as light-hearted humor.

Re: How to Apologize

#18

Post by kaens »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #11

This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…

I think the driving point, which you allude to is that apologies should be honest. There's a minor point in there somewhere about how wording apologies in terms of the receiver-of-offense is a common tactic for people who care most about what the average person thinks of them.

In this case, I can just barely see this being done by someone who was totally aware of how what they posted sounds, but forgot that the context that might allow them to make that joke, amongst people where it would be obvious that it was intended as a jab at a stereotype that all parties thought shouldn't exist, does not exist where it was posted. And then also hit a bit of a panic mode and put up a sheepish apology like that.

I know enough people that have actually done things similar to that. Not because they didn't understand the issues, but because they were distractable, burst-of-extroversion, nerdy younger folk who tended to forget here and there that the reality bubble they were in was not a universal one, and didn't know how to own up to a mistake well.

I absolutely agree with you about the right to opinion, and that people should not need to apologize for holding one. On the other hand, I do not think that those people have the right to have those opinions respected, and if they're especially ridiculous -- bringing back slavery, or the moon being made of conspiracy, for example -- and they're being expressed publicly and vocally, I do not think that those people have the right to not have their opinions called out in a confrontational manner.

Should a person be disrespected for holding a ridiculously offensive opinion? No. A person gets disrespected for actions related to that opinion.

Re: How to Apologize

#19

Post by hullibu »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #11

This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…

In the case of wanting to bring back slavery, you'd be unable to successfully apologize. You may as well tell people that Hitler was your father and you were proud of him in that case, because you'll never be totally forgiven.

At some point, it might be best to give your best apology as stated in the post, but assume that you will not be able to recover from the leg down your throat.

Re: How to Apologize

#20

Post by perokreco »

orblivion wrote: post #10

I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, I wonder if somebody could give me some perspective. There are two conflicting things I don't like here. In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. In most cases I really would say "oh come on lighten up." On the other hand, among us computer programmers, there's so much social ineptness (and perhaps outright disrespect f…

See, both their joke and the statement: "maybe we could take this joke at face value (ha ha, we're all sex deprived computer nerds who would do anything to interact with women for a second)" assumes women are not programmers and thus makes them feel less welcome. That is the main reason why it is bad.
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