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How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

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Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#371

Post by spacebanana7 »

giantg2 wrote: post #282
ericmcer wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno about SK but in the USA the road to kids was: partner up, get a stable income, find a home, start a family. The second and third links in that chain are broken for most people. The older generation wants to work into their 70s and own a bunch of rental properties so… no grandkids.

The first link has some problems too. Even with the second two fulfilled, the fist is a real blocker for many.

At macro level, incomes are rising but marriage rates are falling (even with adding in cohabitation).

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#372

Post by OccamsMirror »

nonethewiser wrote: post #136
kredd wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But doesn't raising kids also provide a big set of exciting experiences you are trading-of against? Maybe for you, but the value proposition isn’t there for me. There’s no indication that the world is willing to fix its global problems (climate change, housing problems and etc.), why would I also subscribe my child to this “fun”? It is weird to write that sentence, as I am generally a fairly optimistic person. But…

I have never seen this sort of extreme existential pessimism in real life (not online). Altering major life decisions like having children based on fears of a negative future. Im not sure if its just more commonly expressed online or if its more common in other place (Europe maybe?) or different age groups (teens or young adults?) but if I asserted this to people locally they would think im nuts. Another possibility…

As someone with kids I can tell that you I often wonder if it was the right thing to do. Have I brought them into a world which will deliver them misery? Are the opportunities that were available to me, and even more so my parents, gone now? The evidence is looking grim. The prognosis is not good. This world is going to shit and the billionaires in charge don’t give a single fuck.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#373

Post by giantg2 »

malauxyeux wrote: post #363
giantg2 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What are the chances my kid – the individual – will lead a relatively peaceful, fulfilling life for the next 70-90 years?" Did your parents know the answer to that? Did your grandparents? Etc What gives you fulfillment varies based on perspective. Peace is fragile and basically non-existent across one's entire lifespan.

> Did your parents know the answer to that? Did your grandparents? No. But it's not really relevant to me. My grandparents' generation was largely motivated by religious faith (and lack of birth control) to have a bunch of kids. My parents' generation mostly lost the religious motivation, but inherited the inertia without questioning it. It's not to say they didn't want their kids, but having kids was just "what you…

Sorry, I'll be more specific - do you wish you were never born?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#374

Post by giantg2 »

spacebanana7 wrote: post #371
giantg2 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first link has some problems too. Even with the second two fulfilled, the fist is a real blocker for many.

At macro level, incomes are rising but marriage rates are falling (even with adding in cohabitation).

Real wages are largely flat for the past 50 years (in the US) as in equality increases. I think thats a big part of the U shaped birth to income graph.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#375

Post by amrocha »

jjcon wrote: post #280
mupuff1234 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humanity overcame bigger problems Like? I tend to agree that humanity will eventually overcome but the question is also when and at what cost?

Bubonic plague, supereruptions, ice ages, malaria, smallpox, ozone deterioration - lots of these seem small now but that’s only because we’ve already overcome them

That's post facto logic. Obviously you and your ancestors have overcome those things, because the millions that didn't are dead.

Statistically someone was going to survive, you're lucky it was your ancestors, but it doesn't mean you will be lucky again.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#376

Post by JambalayaJim »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #317
1-6 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's lived in both areas, California still had opportunities for advancement during my career if one was willing to work hard. In SK, you can work hard all your life but as opportunities are limited, you'll get stuck in toil. When tourists look at S. Korea and say, "Hey, it's real nice here!" They don't see the hundreds of low-paid workers who are working behinds the scenes. There are plenty of low paying…

It's exactly the same in western Europe. American tourists visit here on vacation and think "wow it's really nice here, it's walkable and full of culture" but they don't see there's no opportunities for building generational wealth, as all of it has already been captured by the previous generations so the new generation is stuck in serfdom.

The vast majority of Americans aren’t building generational wealth anyway.

Plus is wealth really all that valuable when you don’t have to worry about crime, funding your child’s education, losing your job, or having a major health scare? When living in a walkable area full of culture is an option everywhere, rather than a select few areas?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#377

Post by kamaal »

1-6 wrote: post #199

South Korea is hostile for new families. Unless you were born to rich parents, have a decent education with a good job (that's with a Multi-national or a Chaebol), own property in Seoul, find a partner, and survive the probability of divorce, having a child is impossible--let alone having two to meet the population replacement rate. What's the solution?

This seems to be the problem with all the developing countries. Economic growth requires, men and women both prioritising jobs over marriage and family stability. Divorces happen because there is immense incentive for women to look for better partners even after 1, or many marriages. The incentives are life long, premium monthly pensions with annual raises and child support payments. All you have to do is marry some one, and divorce them. They now owe you life long monthly pensions.

There is not a job on earth where you can work two years, and then be entitled to life long pensions. Not even in the extreme politics of communism was this even imagined, to the scale marriage has been reduced to now.

Given all, marriage and even having kids is heavily disincentivised. You have to be an idiot beyond belief to walk into something like this.

Apart from this, even with a perfect marriage. Most men have to deal with never ending disappointed feelings from women for working to death and still coming short of their expectations. Given all this I don't think there is a easy solution for this birth rate problem.

Social engineering on the scale of countries is needed. The overall social and cultural trend world wide are no where near whats needed to bring about these birth rate increases.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#378

Post by vidarh »

pid-1 wrote: post #99
famahar wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope we one day see a radical new form of raising children. Historically it was truly a village that raised a child. I never understood how my parents raised 5 children. But looking into it more, there was always a community of people that raised me. Community and mutual aid was huge in the small town in Ethiopia where my parents came from. Coming to Canada, that didn't change. Uncles, aunts, older cousins, long ti…

> I never understood how my parents raised 5 children. My 2*(grand)mother raised 11 children. From what I've heard from other family members, the key to success is not giving enough emotional and material support to each child. What I'm trying to say is: the expectations on children quality of life are also much higher vs 100 yrs ago.

And I think that is the key to dropping fertility: Once you experience relative wealth, you increasingly want to give the same to your kids.

It's not that we can't afford more children, but that we can't afford to give more children and ourselves the level of comfort we've come to expect.

I could afford to give quite a few children the standard of living we had when I was a kid, but while it was fine for it's time, it's not what I'd want to go back to for either myself or my kids.

It's also why I don't think this is a crisis in the long term on a global basis, though it may become one for individual countries:

Once wealth catches up to a level where we have sufficient buffer, I think we can balance things out.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#379

Post by Auracle »

jm__87 wrote: post #345
Auracle wrote: post #311

Are we sure that there's nothing else going on with fertility rates? It seems odd to me that one of the primary drives of humanity has fallen off of a cliff so quickly. Sure, it mostly manifests as a drive to have sex and we can get around that with birth control, but that's not the only thing it does to us. There's a reason the concept of the "biological clock ticking" is a thing. We know testosterone levels are dro…

Weird to be wondering if men are to blame here when women are typically the ones who have the final say as to when and with whom they decide to settle down and have kids with. Personally I think it is a combination of couples not wanting to have kids for a variety of reasons (not wanting to sacrifice their quality of life, lack of economic security, anxieties about the future), women delaying childbirth for longer to…

I didn't say it was men. Unfortunately I haven't seen any studies looking at if women have also had a decrease in testosterone levels. Like I said though, it could be another hormone.

Sure, we can find plenty of excuses...but to say that people don't want to have children anymore is like saying they don't want to have sex anymore - which seems to be happening more and more as well. Teenagers are having less sex than ever, in a time where knowledge about sex and birth control is at an all time high. I think something is screwy.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#380

Post by Auracle »

malauxyeux wrote: post #366
Auracle wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think any parents have ever known that answer? Before climate change was the Cold War and threat of nuclear annihilation, before that was two major world wars, before that was a string of wars and plagues going back to the beginning of humanity. If you think climate change is a good reason to not have children you need to stop and reexamine how the media/doomscrolling have affected your thought process. I see…

> reexamine how the media/doomscrolling have affected your thought process. No need. Except for Hacker News and local news, I don't read the news. I don't use other social networks except for a few small non-news subreddits and Github. But my local environment is changing year over year, and it's concerning. > We get to live in air conditioned houses It's funny that you mention that. Air conditioners were almost unhe…

I work outside.

I guarantee my 2 year old daughter will be just fine in regards to global warming. Some areas of the world might have issues, but if you're in a rich country like America you don't really need to worry about it on a personally-affecting-me-level.

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