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How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

nippon.com

71–80 of 439 posts

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#71

The only thing they left out in the article is what the effect of pollutants like BPA have on the birthrate. Currently, BPA, an artificial estrogen, is nearly everywhere from food, receipts, and now even clothing. PFAS, BPS, and a host of other pollutants are almost as widespread in many countries that experienced any decent amount of industrialization

This explanation may make sense if people were complaining about an inability to have kids despite wanting them. But physical infertility is not alleged here.

Correct. South Korea's low birth rate is primarily out of personal choices, although likely impacted by high cost of living and weirdly kid-unfriendly cultural norms.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#72
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

We've allowed everything in life to be assigned a monetary value and it turns out that kids have a very low RoI

yeah children used to be the best investment, nowadays in developed countries it seems a lot of young people think the opposite, and they have good reasons to.

it's going to be a sad, empty and quiet world in the west a few decades in the future.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#73

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

Feel free to read through the thread and note the numerous reasons why people do not feel prepared to do this "one weird trick"

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Capitalism. The problem is capitalism. Not capitalism but the unfettered capitalism without protection for workers. In a system where humans are treated as "input" for the big machine without income security, said humans will not produce more burden unto themselves. If having a kid increases the risk of destitution, the rational human will choose to not have them (or at least not have more than 1).

I would like to sympathize with that opinion, but as a matter of fact also countries with strong worker protections and a pretty decent social security system are suffering from birth rates below replacement.

But not as bad as Korea or Japan.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#75
post #4

[flagged]

My impression was that in the US the housing crisis was caused by regulatory burden, zoning laws and nimbyism. Is there clear evidence of US housing problems stemming from capitalism?

Yes there are restrictions on supply but you need to look at why for the things you mention. Zoning doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's implemented by politicians. Why? What forces are pushing for that? Is it the NIMBYs? Maybe. But money talks in politics. So what political interests are pushing for restrictive zoning? Why?

The real problem here is that housing became financialized (like every aspect of our lives). People see their $300k house go up in value to $600k and think they've made money. But have they? You still need a place to live. If every house that cost $300k now costs $600k, you still only have one house unit of wealth. So what have you really gained?

One extension of this is you decide you need to own multiple properties. You need to become a landlord. For many, this is their retirement. But what is being a landlord? It's withholding a basic human need (ie shelter) for profit. it's choosing to let people die on the streets if it makes you money.

So this system only really benefits the truly wealthy to accumulate wealth by extracting wealth through rent at the threat of violence. Eviction is violence. Witholding shelter is violence.

Now this might be fine if the government provided a baseline for shelter through what is most commonly referred to as "social housing". Americans, in particular, who hear this think "projects" or "ghettoes" (ie Section 8 Housing) but look at a city like Vienna where ~60% (IIRC) of the housing is owned by the government [1].

But we don't have such a aystem in the US because it would reduce profits. It would reduce the extraction of wealth from workers. This is capitalism.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41VJudBdYXY

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#76
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

We've allowed everything in life to be assigned a monetary value and it turns out that kids have a very low RoI

Only in the short-term, which is exactly the problem. Squeeze more now and don't worry about the long-term consequences. "Après nous, le déluge"

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#77

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

I hope we one day see a radical new form of raising children. Historically it was truly a village that raised a child. I never understood how my parents raised 5 children. But looking into it more, there was always a community of people that raised me. Community and mutual aid was huge in the small town in Ethiopia where my parents came from. Coming to Canada, that didn't change. Uncles, aunts, older cousins, long time family friends. Communes have a similar structure but usually get a bad rep. Good podcast episode on the topic

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/opinion/ezra-klein-kriste...?

"We could be raising our children cooperatively in dwellings designed to enhance rather than inhibit social connection. We could be more sustainably sharing our resources and teaching our children to value collaboration over competition. We could be living in wider lateral networks of love, care, and support; fighting the scourges of loneliness, anxiety, precarity and the many stresses associated with modern life. Most of us are not.”

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#78

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

>and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. I don't think this is quite right, and your second paragraph is kind of alluding to the underlying issue. I think it's more that there isn't a pathway for women to drop out of the workforce permanently and revert to a single-income household. A…

My sister is in that boat of not making finances work. Her job pays too well for her to leave the work force.

As a man, I’m looking for an independent woman with a good income, because I don’t want to get gutted in a divorce. I’d love to be a SAHD, but it’s difficult for me to find single women with comparable income.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#79

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

> they just don't provide any concrete solutions

Childcare subsidies.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#80
post #25

Life may be too good for kids anymore The article has curiously little about what koreans actually want, vs what the author thinks is stopping them (despite their burning desire) to have kids. After all, as the article says the birthrate went way down a long time ago thus it's likely that people would know by now what is stopping them from having more kids

No. I want kids but I don't want them until I can afford stable housing. And if that's hard for me as an overpaid tech worker, then I understand why most people are delaying kids or not having them at all. If most young people are still living with parents or roommates well into their 30's, then it's not a mystery why my generation isn't having kids. Nothing to do with 'life is so good kids aren't desirable anymore'.

Then why does the birth rate steadily go down as you move up the income curve? My experience is that my wealthy adult peer group just has almost no interest in having children while my high school friends, many struggling badly financially, all already have families.
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