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How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

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Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#361

Post by oska »

1-6 wrote: post #258
sapa777 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As impressive as it sounds to say South Korea developed successfully on its own, did it? Did the US play any hand in its development? I mean obviously South Korea would not exist had it not been for the US' help in the war. But even afterwards, is there an sort of advantage South Korea had by having the US (the leading super power at the time) help?

South Korea could have very well been used as the US's beachhead especially during a time when China and Japan were becoming growing empires. Several businesses also benefited from the prosperity of neighboring countries. The Korean news to this day reports on export trends because of it being an exports-based economy. A period of rapid easy growth has put Won into the pockets of Seoulites who merely became rich from…

> South Korea could have very well been used as the US's beachhead

South Korea was and is used as "the US's beachhead". There is still a significant US military presence in the country even now.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#362

Post by signatoremo »

jimlongton wrote: post #320
grej wrote: post #206

South Korea was among the poorest countries in the world - poorer than many countries in Sub-Saharan Africa as recently as the 1960s. Withing a single lifetime they transformed themselves into one of the most advanced developed economies on the planet with a madman (mad men) on their doorstep. It’s natural that that kind of change will have some massive societal implications, many of which they are still sorting out.…

> it’s worth noting what they’ve accomplished in getting to a place where they can afford to worry about that as one of their primary concerns It's probably also worth noting the long history of military dictatorships, murderous suppression of worker rights, massive ongoing corruption (including a literal cult controlling the government until 2016) and the highest suicide rate in the world. Reducing the story to just…

You can say the same things, or even worse, about many countries in the same time frame — China, Indonesia, South Africa, Brazil, Chile. South Korea both achieved economy miracle, and transformed itself into a solid democracy, better than any of the others

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#363

Post by malauxyeux »

giantg2 wrote: post #288
malauxyeux wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, the question isn't "Will humanity overcome?" I don't have a doubt about that. Instead it's "What are the chances my kid – the individual – will lead a relatively peaceful, fulfilling life for the next 70-90 years?" I don't know the answer.

"What are the chances my kid – the individual – will lead a relatively peaceful, fulfilling life for the next 70-90 years?" Did your parents know the answer to that? Did your grandparents? Etc What gives you fulfillment varies based on perspective. Peace is fragile and basically non-existent across one's entire lifespan.

> Did your parents know the answer to that? Did your grandparents?

No. But it's not really relevant to me.

My grandparents' generation was largely motivated by religious faith (and lack of birth control) to have a bunch of kids.

My parents' generation mostly lost the religious motivation, but inherited the inertia without questioning it. It's not to say they didn't want their kids, but having kids was just "what you did".

None of that's the case for me.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#364

Post by anthonypasq »

nemothekid wrote: post #287
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not arguing your decision to not have children. I've made the same decision myself, but the 'can't afford to have children' has always confused me. Even after the point where contraception became readily available, people were having children with far fewer resources than anyone alive today. What I hear when people say 'We can't afford to have children' is an additional '...and maintain our current standard of li…

It might be fair to assume that you are relatively upperclass tech worker; I think your perceptions of what people can do is colored by your social circle. For many people they aren't worried about kids going to a private school, it's whether they can afford to feed someone else . I'm surprised none of your expectations include basic child care - food, shelter, care. If you are just scraping by on two incomes how do…

poor people have more kids so your entire argument is nonsense

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#365

Post by anthonypasq »

caskstrength wrote: post #252
neom wrote: post #202

My wife and I have opted not to have children for reasons* and it's really sad how the conversation with the in-laws has moved from "you should have children because children" to "you need to have children because korea needs you to have children", and it's not just a passing comment here and there, the campaign to get us to single handedly re-populate SK is intense and sustained. I wonder if other couples are experi…

I don't think shaming young people into having children will work (for SK or any other country). Eventually they will have to adjust their culture and immigration policies to be more welcoming to outsiders.

theres only so many outsiders and much of the west is already gobbling them up

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#366

Post by malauxyeux »

Auracle wrote: post #295
malauxyeux wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, the question isn't "Will humanity overcome?" I don't have a doubt about that. Instead it's "What are the chances my kid – the individual – will lead a relatively peaceful, fulfilling life for the next 70-90 years?" I don't know the answer.

Do you think any parents have ever known that answer? Before climate change was the Cold War and threat of nuclear annihilation, before that was two major world wars, before that was a string of wars and plagues going back to the beginning of humanity. If you think climate change is a good reason to not have children you need to stop and reexamine how the media/doomscrolling have affected your thought process. I see…

> reexamine how the media/doomscrolling have affected your thought process.

No need. Except for Hacker News and local news, I don't read the news. I don't use other social networks except for a few small non-news subreddits and Github.

But my local environment is changing year over year, and it's concerning.

> We get to live in air conditioned houses

It's funny that you mention that. Air conditioners were almost unheard of where I live. But now we're regularly hitting 40C+ in the summer for long stretches and people locally are installing them. It wasn't like that 15 years ago.

To flip your advice on its head, maybe turn off the air conditioning and experience the change firsthand.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#367

Post by MichaelZuo »

mycologos wrote: post #284
matthewtse wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having spent some time recently in Seoul, the amount of materialism and status oneupsmanship was striking compared to the USA. One hypothesis I have is that it's because of the genetic homogeneity of everyone there, meaning the main way to differentiate between others is through your things.

You could also just have different personalities. The idea that differentiation must be entirely visual and object-based seems pretty uncreative.

South Koreans are more homogeneous in personality then Americans even more so then the 6x population difference would suggest.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#368

Post by MichaelZuo »

RestlessMind wrote: post #342
intrasight wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is fewer people - which is the direction they are headed. S.Korea has twice the population density of Germany for instance. So cutting in to half the current number seems about right. Honest question: who benefits from population growth besides developers?

> Honest question: who benefits from population growth besides developers? Honest answer: next generation of retirees / older people. They need young people in multiple ways - 1. to sustain welfare (which is pay-as-you-go universally), 2. production of food / entertainment / stuff, 3. services If you think automation is going to solve that, just look at who were "essential service workers"[1] in Covid where governmen…

Huh? 'Essential service workers' don't even make up 20% of the current adult population of the US.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#369

Post by MichaelZuo »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #167
inasio wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel experimented with communally raising children within the Kibbutz system, but as far as I know the results weren't super encouraging and few places still do it

Kibbutz's failed because there's no incentive to do any work, same with every other form of communism that's been tried. Reworking daycare to be a more holistic experience than it currently is is a very different idea.

With what legal authority? Even the Knesset back then couldn't pass more ambitious laws. Let alone in 2023 or in most other countries.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#370

Post by [deleted] »

orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

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