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When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

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Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#261

Post by [deleted] »

mulmen wrote: post #235
johnnyanmac wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Divorced from the reality that you don't own the work corporations extract from you? From the reality that there are co-workers who aren't mutually planning your destruction? Everyone's experience is different, I guess. But I assure you there are places where co-workers are fine focusing on work and not making specifically you miserable.

I'm not sure what conversation you are having or who you think you are having it with. The world you have described doesn't exist. The point here is that taking a stand is admirable but personal. You should never force others to join you. You may desire a world in which unsolicited feedback has no negative consequence but we don't live in that reality.

[deleted]

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#262

Post by gizmo686 »

pluijzer wrote: post #201
gizmo686 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on context, but I have found the opposite. "Have you thought about this approach" can come across as condcending. Of course I thought about that, it was the first thing I tried before the much more complicated solution that actually works. "Why didn't you do it this way" invites them to share the war story of what happened when they tried doing that.

But your example are cases where you feel strong because you have this war story. How about the cases where you just made a mistake? That said, I never liked the 'sandwhich' method, saying; "Great effort. The result is horrible, like your indentation though."

"war story" is a bit strong, but most of the time I don't go with the obvious solution, there was some investigating done that led to the conclusion that the obvious solution wouldn't work.

The trick is to know who you are talking to. If they did think of your idea, accusing them of having missed it is offensive. If they didn't consider it, asking them to justify their reasoning puts them on the spot.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#263

Post by handoflixue »

mulmen wrote: post #188
sethammons wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I let managers know about great interactions with their direct reports. It never occurred to me to ask. I may start doing so. But this reason for not doing it boils my blood: > One person mentioned that they got reprimanded by their manager for getting a spot peer bonus for helping someone on another team. This is a hill I will die on: people at $this_company are a team and helping one another is critical in building…

The phrase is “I won’t die on that hill”. It references the pointless meat grinders of the Vietnam war. There is no corollary hill worth dying on. If you still want to throw your life away on a meaningless endeavor do not bring me along with you. Talking to management can and will hurt people. Do not make decisions for others without their consent.

> There is no corollary hill worth dying on.

A quick Google search would reveal that "This is a hill I will die on" is in fact an extremely common saying.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#264

Post by trifurcate »

thegrimmest wrote: post #259
trifurcate wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always have doubts about others' work and suggestions on how they could do it better. To avoid constantly dominating others, I either have to shut my mouth or try to be more accommodating in how I deliver my feedback. I do a mix of both, but if you tell me to be straight with you, then I'll be straight with you. Especially in large corporate organizations where there are vast differences in how people communicate a…

This should just be the default. Many organizations do in fact write this down in their internal communication guides, where it's known as the ABCs (accuracy, brevity, clarity) of professional communication. > I always have doubts about others' work and suggestions on how they could do it better If you're right, they should listen to you (gratefully), if you're not they should tell you why so you can learn. There is…

> There is no good reason to react emotionally to professional criticism.

And yet when it happens (not a rare event), it can be quite unproductive for both parties. I would hope that you deal with other worst-practices in your domain with greater grace than a total refusal to deal with and prevent pathological outcomes.

Additionally, if you truly believe what you stated, then so long as I avoid sacrificing significant efficiency/productivity to keep my words from bothering people, then I do not see why it should bother you either. If I had to self-judge, I really don't think that the added conversational padding pans out to more than 15 minutes per day. That's worth spending to make sure that the people you work with are engaged with you and the task at hand in an accommodating way, rather than fearing being rebuked at each turn.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#265

Post by thegrimmest »

Kalium wrote: post #66
freedomben wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second example is a good one and I agree is a more effective approach to communicating. But GP was right. There's a huge difference between your first example: > “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” and the second: > “Thank you for the effort…” The first is most likely a lie, otherwise you wouldn't be offering an alternative suggestion! If somebody said that to me I'd feel…

These approaches and how effective they are are both culturally and individually sensitive. The "Yes, but" approach works well in a context where people understand it as feedback that they should change. Softening the criticism with praise works for many people. It can also backfire in a context where people distrust praise, where the criticism is not understood as such, or when people have trouble with American busi…

It's a lot easier to teach many people how to receive communication in one style than it is to teach everyone to send communication in many styles. We can, and many organizations do, write style guides for internal communication. The most successful such style guides (eg. military, intelligence) emphasize the ABCs (accuracy, brevity, clarity) any to avoid extraneous verbiage.

If your coworkers respond negatively to a simple, direct question like "Why didn't you do it this way?", they can be trained to handle professional communication more dispassionately (more professionally).

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#266

Post by mulmen »

handoflixue wrote: post #263
mulmen wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase is “I won’t die on that hill”. It references the pointless meat grinders of the Vietnam war. There is no corollary hill worth dying on. If you still want to throw your life away on a meaningless endeavor do not bring me along with you. Talking to management can and will hurt people. Do not make decisions for others without their consent.

> There is no corollary hill worth dying on. A quick Google search would reveal that "This is a hill I will die on" is in fact an extremely common saying.

Yes, it is common. I would even call it cliche. Being common doesn't make it interesting or valuable.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#267

Post by tines »

stcroixx wrote: post #210
tines wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about phrasing, it's about being genuine and also choosing to have a certain perspective which builds the other person up. There's nothing to see through.

It’s out of context. Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’. If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point.

> If you start with some unrelated positive thing, it will be recognized as a manipulation technique because context tells us there’s no other reason to raise the point.

That's true, but nobody (that I saw) suggested saying things that don't fit the context.

> Not all adults need or want other adults to ‘build them up’.

Everyone wants respect and for people to be "on their side," and that's what we're talking about here. If someone doesn't care about your opinion, they won't mind you treating them respectfully, but if someone does care, then they'll mind when you don't. So why not just treat everyone respectfully?

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#268

Post by eweise »

pxc wrote: post #222
eweise wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. Having worked with so many engineers with almost no social skills, I think there's a lot of room for improvement in their communication style. "Why didn't you do it this way?" is aggressive and critical. "have you thought about this approach?" makes them feel like you have their back and are trying to help. I agree there's not a huge need to the "I really liked how you tackled this" part but even never praising…

> "Why didn't you do it this way?" is aggressive and critical. 'Why didn't you do it this way?' reveals an expectation that you would have done whatever it was 'this way', but it doesn't indicate that that expectation is normative . A junior might well ask that just because 'this way' is the only way they know how to do it, and they're curious about whether the developer they're asking chose a different route for sty…

"Aggressive and critical" I couldn't find the right words initially but a better word might be accusatory. To me, it sounds like they should have but didn't. A lot of other posters don't get that flavor from it and see it as just a genuine curiosity which makes sense.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#269

Post by whats_a_quasar »

mulmen wrote: post #177
agloe_dreams wrote: post #5

I disagree with the angle on this about asking and how to go about things but mostly because complimenting in context is helpful. When someone does great work, tell everyone, not just their manager. Do it in public and clearly in standups after they talk about what they did last day/week. "I just want to mention, that work that Joe did on that module is fantastic, thanks!" It is so easy to be a force for good. Being…

I strongly disagree and have worked in multiple environments where your actions would have harmed me personally. Your manager is never your friend. All relationships with management are adversarial. It’s like talking to the police. Do not volunteer information. You don’t know where other people are, always obtain consent.

This has not been my experience at any of the places I've worked. All of my managers have been supportive, open with information, and collaborative, including in promotions and in negotiations with other teams for resources.

I would never knowingly take a job at a company where the culture requires this attitude towards management. I'd also try hard to avoid corporate cultures where praise can somehow hurt someone.

Re: When your coworker does great work, tell their manager (2020)

#270

Post by zogrodea »

Osiris wrote: post #56
Angostura wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a really good point here - but have you thought about being a little less abrasive in your phrasing? It can help your point gain acceptance.

This thread is a perfect example of OPs suggestion and why it works.

I think it's sarcasm or a joke, because there are two replies I've seen phrased like "I think [praise] but [suggestion]".

Here's another. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37342414

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