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My Caste

cs.toronto.edu

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Re: My Caste

#211

Post by BowBun »

moralestapia wrote: post #199

Phew, what a post. I am at University of Toronto right now. I have only been here for some months but I have seen enough things to get a sense of the "politics" of the place. Also, I've been in many of the world's top universities (Caltech, Cornell, KAUST, Oxford, Stanford, UNAM, and some others with less pompous names); either studying, visiting, working, w/e. I've been doing this for close to 20 years now. I know a…

Pardon for reaching for personal traits, but it seems relevant in this case. You have a name of Hispanic origin. That gives me the impression that you are not the target audience of this article, or someone that would be likely to notice these very subtle biases that exist in a different culture.

Can you think of any very subtle racism/bias that exists in your culture, which foreigners may not be able to pick up on without extreme command of the culture + language? I sure can.

Not saying anything about UoT one way or another, just to take what people say seriously unless you have reason to doubt them. This isn't outrage on behalf of someone else, this is someone living the experience and telling their story.

Re: My Caste

#212

Post by lozenge »

raincom wrote: post #21

Maybe, it is time to think what discriminations are, what caste-discriminations are: https://www.hipkapi.com/2011/03/24/normative-assumptions-dis...

The article boils down to "discrimination is bad, treating people differently by sex or caste is okay, therefore I don't want to call it discrimination, regardless of whether it is or not".

Re: My Caste

#213

Post by lowbloodsugar »

isanjay wrote: post #33

I worked in 3 different companies (Hyderabad, Bangalore) in South India and did not see any evidence of caste discrimination. Or even people talking about discrimination in office. While I did see discrimination in college, which was in a rural town in South India.

I worked at one, and it was pretty blatant.

Re: My Caste

#214

Post by cududa »

moralestapia wrote: post #206
kristianp wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have several Indian friends I've made during my stay here, and not a single time has the issue of caste has come up to be discussed. I'm guessing it's not discussed at great length and not discussed with non-Indian people at all unless you brimg it up.

If you're trying to hint at some "it happens all the time, it's just hidden from public view", it doesn't. Non-Indians literally don't care, and very (very) few Indians actually do (at least in Canada).

> If you're trying to hint at some "it happens all the time, it's just hidden from public view", it doesn't.

> Non-Indians literally don't care

These are contradicting statements. We know non-Indians don't care ... because most of us don't even know about it, at least in any capacity to have a strong opinion. Maybe non-Indians "literally" not caring is why "it's just hidden from public view"

Re: My Caste

#215

Post by michaelhoffman »

moralestapia wrote: post #199

Phew, what a post. I am at University of Toronto right now. I have only been here for some months but I have seen enough things to get a sense of the "politics" of the place. Also, I've been in many of the world's top universities (Caltech, Cornell, KAUST, Oxford, Stanford, UNAM, and some others with less pompous names); either studying, visiting, working, w/e. I've been doing this for close to 20 years now. I know a…

I am faculty at University of Toronto. As part of the process of considering someone for tenure here, the university solicits six appraisals from relevant experts at other institutions. The candidate will not know who the referees are. Generally, the appraisals are positive; a negative appraisal may severely affect someone's tenure case.

I don't see the concern in this post as one of widespread caste discrimination at University of Toronto, but more that he's worried that a single prejudiced person might upset this, either an external referee, or someone internal involved in the decision-making process. In fact, that is exactly what he says.

https://www.aapm.utoronto.ca/academic-administrative-procedu...

Re: My Caste

#216

Post by hyperpape »

b215826 wrote: post #103

.

> looking at IITM's CS faculty listing [2], I see at least 20+ faculty without caste-based surnames. How exactly did the author find their castes?

If I count correctly, there are 47 faculty members there. So that leaves potentially 20+ faculty members with caste based surnames. How many can you identify? Are any of them lower castes?

If caste isn't an issue, why is the only response "well, of course you can't tell caste, so there can't be discrimination", not "actually, they are plenty of lower caste people in faculty positions, and they're totally open about it, because it's not a big deal?"

Re: My Caste

#217

Post by cududa »

moralestapia wrote: post #210
cududa wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on your comment of "Indian friends" never bringing it up, do you know what caste they were born into? I mean maybe they never bring it up because it wasn't a problem for their station by birth?

You didn't get the point of my comment. "Caste" is meaningless here. Edit: @cududa's comment was something like "care to share what caste you were born into?" to which I replied what you see here and then he altered his comment substantially. Sneaky.

Sorry, I reread the comment and realized the author wasn't from India, so I updated my comment. Should have deleted the original and posted a new comment

Re: My Caste

#218

Post by andai »

542458 wrote: post #131
raincom wrote: post #115

Even though RTI queries to major IITs reveal that almost all faculty comes from un-reserved category, one needs more evidence (than this RTI data) to show that caste discrimination occurred. If there is an opening for two faculty positions in the IITM CS department esp in machine learning and AI, if 20 people are applied, two are selected, and two happened to be from un-reserved category. Does it prove caste-discrimi…

Even if the delta was the result of a lack of candidates from disadvantaged castes, to me that suggests that the discrimination already happened earlier, weeding out the disadvantaged castes before they could even become qualified candidates.

What if differences in outcome are due to genetics? Do we then genetically engineer each group (this tech will soon be widespread) until all group outcomes are equalized?

Serious question btw, I have heard someone applauding this (and seeing it as likely to occur as an emergent phenomenon due to free market competition).

(As a humorous side-note: I heard someone say in an interview, "I hope that differences in intelligence are genetic, because then it means we can do something about it with technology. If not, we'd be doomed! When has a social policy ever produced the desired outcome?")

Re: My Caste

#219

Post by soligern »

mikrl wrote: post #209

How do foreigners / non-Hindus fit into the caste system? Are there caste equivalent attitudes towards Arabs, Euros, East Asians and so on? Or from a different angle, Muslims, Christians, irreligious, etc. Or does the framework not apply to those outside of the Hindu community?

It mostly doesn’t. Historically there have been lots of mass conversions to other religions the first one being Buddhism in 600BC. Buddhism came about primarily as a response to Hindu orthodoxy and the caste system.

Re: My Caste

#220

Post by isanjay »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #213
isanjay wrote: post #33

I worked in 3 different companies (Hyderabad, Bangalore) in South India and did not see any evidence of caste discrimination. Or even people talking about discrimination in office. While I did see discrimination in college, which was in a rural town in South India.

I worked at one, and it was pretty blatant.

Which City ?
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