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Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

theguardian.com

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Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#201
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Navy coveralls are pretty thin. Submariners (except especially hot watchstanders like engineroom upper level) wear non-uniform sweaters and survival jackets because of how cold it can get due to heat loss to deep cold water. When submarines are in warm water, it’s not nearly as bad. There is climate control and small heaters, but a submarine is not going to be designed with massive heaters in the HVAC system because…

I've read a little bit about life on ships during the age of sail. One common theme is that the enlisted men's lives are basically thought of much like the wooden planks: Not at all, and if so, only when it's affected the mission, in which case it's beaten back into shape. The sleeping quarters and conditions, the rations, the toilets, etc, all just terrible. Officers had it a smidge better at that time. Navies are v…

I've been on modern sailships as well, and also read a bit about 17th and 18th century ships. My impressions are that (excluding galleys) life conditions on board had to be "good enough" and sailors (and soldiers) would openly complain when the small privileges of their category were not upheld, like bigger rations for gunners, alcohol distribution etc.

On a sailship where everything is ruled and organized, you can be okay with very little comfort. Of course modern ships are much better in terms of facilities (the privy's not much different sometimes but there are showers, clean bedding, better food - sometimes - etc), but a hammock with a rug in a room with 20 to 100 other people nearby, above and below must have felt pretty much the same.

There were also vast cultural differences between nations. The Royal Navy was known for the iron discipline and punishments partly because it was very easy to recruit sailors. Nations where Navy service was voluntary, or tied to a social corps were probably different.

Today, in an enduring peace context, there is a great focus on living conditions. Though it has gotten better for enlisted men (notably because automation means more space on a ship for bathrooms, larger rooms with less people etc), some regret the living conditions on older ships with more collective life. 50-men rooms were no strange thing on some big ships in the 2000s, I guess there are still ships like that (I've never been on a ship with a crew bigger than 250). Technology (cameras, alarms, fire detectors etc) also means there is less need for watch duty both at sea and in harbour. I've been sometimes among the ones arguing officers care too much for what the enlisted crew says, especially regarding their "generational need" for social media and hourly Internet access. After a week without smartphones nobody complains about Snapchat anymore.

You're right that there is less concern for enlisted crews. I'd say the points of scrutiny are their psychological well-being (they're often new in this, so more vulnerable to depression, bullying, excesses of various kinds etc), and of course identifying potential and convincing the most talented ones to stay and progress. The reasons for this realtive lack of concern can be:

- They're young, more adventurous and adaptable.

- They have it good: the pay is generous, especially for 18-year-olds (sometimes younger) with little to no qualifications. They have a lot of opportunities, being stationed on the other side of the world, going out in strange places and harbours (except for the US Navy, you have to get two truckloads of Marines to guard the place before you can order a drink at an African bar), and get to learn the job as they progress, especially for the technical ones.

- They can leave very quickly if they want. Petty officers, CPOs and offcers are held by longer contracts, that are often very hard to break unilaterally because of legal provisions specific to the military.

- The focus is on the Petty Officers. Petty Officers have qualifications (highschool, vocational school, sometimes college), and you invest a lot in them. They learn very technical, irreplaceable skills, they manage small teams from a very young age, and you want them to stay and progress. It can take up to 20 years to make a combat management system expert, a military SATCOM specialist. You can't get experienced ones on the job market (cruise missile specialists, ship turbine experts, etc) and you're often unable to compete on salary alone (IT and data specialists, nuclear technicians etc). Not to mention you really need them on the ships...

- There are less and less enlisted crews onboard. The ships are getting more technical, meaning the bulk of the crew is made of petty officers. The US Navy counts POs in the enlisted statistics, so I don't have the exact numbers.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years ago I did a bit of speleology so I'm not afraid of confined spaces but as a male I'd be scared to spend time on a submarine in cramped conditions and in mixed company. I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. The nature and politics of the t…

Granted, i am no submariner, but i wasted some time of my life in the early 00s in the german army. We never had any problems with harassment or anything like that... for one, the women i met there were at least twice as tough as the men in the same unit and had an attitude that let you forget really fast they were from another gender. I never understood there could be any form of problem... though, perhaps the infan…

IIRC the German fleet had been traumatized by a series of false sexual assault claims by one or two women in the late 90s. I don't remember the details but it was before women were allowed to serve in every position in 2000/2001.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#203
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry that MAD requires the other actors to have accurate information, and act rationally. When an “insane” person makes the call I fear the entire system of deterrence falls apart…

Funny how personalist most of the West suddenly becomes when things don't go their way, case in point the current government in Moscow. Nevermind that Putin is by far not the only highly placed Russian official that was of the opinion that this current war should take place, it all happened because he is an "insane" person, damn the system as a whole. As a matter of fact that's also what happened with the Nazi white-…

Timothy Snyder's lectures on Ukrainian history in 2022 are very enlightening in this regard. He also stresses the need to discuss German imperialism in WWII, a topic that went out of focus after the invention (of the concept, for lack of a better word) of the Shoah and the coming to public awareness of all the horrors we know.

The "clean Wehrmacht" myth has also a history of its own, which I sometimes see as having to do with the political weight of veterans and their immediate families and Germany's progressive acceptance of democracy, in a cold war context.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That‘s not what he said at all. More stress means more temptation to take drugs.

Sigh. For women to be the prominent factor of stress when working in a f*king nuclear submarine, you'd have to have serious communication issues with the opposite gender…

Sounds like you interpreted that in the worst way possible. I challenge you to reply reading in the best way possible.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#205
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deterrence works broadly across a population. If a suicidally insane leader ordered a broad first strike nuclear attack, every officer and soldier involved with executing those orders would understand, individually, the retaliation they would create against themselves, their friends, and their families. I’m not saying it’s perfect, and I agree that the world would be way safer if zero nuclear weapons were on standby…

A soldier disobeying a direct order from a Russian dictator has a pretty grim life expectancy. Soldiers generally have a very limited and distorted view of whatever broader situation they are in, and any first strike would likely be couched in a lot of optimism and/or desperation. An officer saying "You need to launch this missile immediately to save your homeland, and if you don't do it you'll be shot in the head as…

Sure but the officer has to be willing too. And just like the soldier, they have friends and family sitting under the threat of retaliation. A suicidal leader can’t personally threaten to shoot everyone in the head to get their way.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#206
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deterrence works broadly across a population. If a suicidally insane leader ordered a broad first strike nuclear attack, every officer and soldier involved with executing those orders would understand, individually, the retaliation they would create against themselves, their friends, and their families. I’m not saying it’s perfect, and I agree that the world would be way safer if zero nuclear weapons were on standby…

Military personnel aren't trained to take time to consider their self-interest. MAD also only works if your side is willing to push the button.

People don’t usually need training to want to protect their friends and family.

If you think the military successfully trains that out of people, you’re not very familiar with the military. Defending friends and family is one of strongest motivations for conformance to military discipline.

MAD works because no one wants to be the first to push the button. And as long as no one pushes it first, no one needs to push it second either.

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