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Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

theguardian.com

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Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing this fascinating take on how you experience the world. Personally, as a man, I have never found the need to worry about any of the issues you highlight when interacting with other genders. I wonder what makes our experiences so different?

What do you think makes your experiences so different?

Could be perhaps generation difference. Many things today considered to be sexism used to be normal fun a few decades ago and perhaps older people can slip into the old behavior if not careful.

I'm personally not worried about working in a mixed team, no matter how small the office is. I just keep things professional ... and that's it.

Having said that, conditions in a submarine might be different, and office experience might not be applicable.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#112
post #5

This 2012 article mentions that the Royal Navy might have female submariners "next year". It happened in 2014: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/female-submariners-make-h... And here's the next article I found on the subject, from last year, looks like it's not going so well: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.opindia.com/2022/11/women-o...

Years ago I did a bit of speleology so I'm not afraid of confined spaces but as a male I'd be scared to spend time on a submarine in cramped conditions and in mixed company. I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. The nature and politics of the t…

It's interesting that just today The Guardian is running a story praising a new women only living space in London[1], a city where 81% of homeless, rough sleepers are men[2].

This chimes with the view that gender segregation is only seen as a bad thing when it's male only spaces.

1. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/24/we-have...

2. https://www.statista.com/statistics/381373/london-homelessne...

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#113
post #76
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bi lateral, you say? SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute): Countries with an increase in stockpiled nuclear warheads from Jan 2022 to Jan 2023: China: +60 Russia: +12 Pakistan: +5 North Korea: +5 India: +4 https://www.statista.com/chart/30173/the-countries-expanding...

The UK, France, China, and Israel are more than an order of magnitude under the US and Russia in their nuclear armament, and Pakistan, India, and NK are another order below them.

There's also the number actually in use - the UK has four nuclear submarines, one of which is always at sea, so can only ever really launch 1/4 of it's armament. The rest will be sitting somewhere when the big day comes, never to be used.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#114
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry that MAD requires the other actors to have accurate information, and act rationally. When an “insane” person makes the call I fear the entire system of deterrence falls apart…

Funny how personalist most of the West suddenly becomes when things don't go their way, case in point the current government in Moscow. Nevermind that Putin is by far not the only highly placed Russian official that was of the opinion that this current war should take place, it all happened because he is an "insane" person, damn the system as a whole. As a matter of fact that's also what happened with the Nazi white-…

It was also a pragmatist way to get buy-in and avoiding an insurgence situation against the allied occupation after the war, I imagine.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#115
post #5

This 2012 article mentions that the Royal Navy might have female submariners "next year". It happened in 2014: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/female-submariners-make-h... And here's the next article I found on the subject, from last year, looks like it's not going so well: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.opindia.com/2022/11/women-o...

Years ago I did a bit of speleology so I'm not afraid of confined spaces but as a male I'd be scared to spend time on a submarine in cramped conditions and in mixed company. I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. The nature and politics of the t…

> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought.

As a male, I can assure you that the types of comments that you think “pass without thought” isn't considered desirable by all of your fellow male colleagues either. Sure they won't necessarily complaint about it publicly, but they'll still see you in a negative way.

Maybe you should accept that you're not a teenager anymore and that there are things that you shouldn't be saying out loud in a professional environment just because you think it's funny, it's not.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#116
post #5

This 2012 article mentions that the Royal Navy might have female submariners "next year". It happened in 2014: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/female-submariners-make-h... And here's the next article I found on the subject, from last year, looks like it's not going so well: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.opindia.com/2022/11/women-o...

And 3 years later in 2017 there are drugs and sex problems. > Nine service personnel on a nuclear submarine have been discharged from the Royal Navy after testing positive for drugs. > The revelations come after claims earlier this month of inappropriate sexual relationships among some of those on board HMS Vigilant, one of four Vanguard Class submarines which maintain the UK's nuclear deterrent and is armed with Tri…

So you think women brought drugs on submarines?

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years ago I did a bit of speleology so I'm not afraid of confined spaces but as a male I'd be scared to spend time on a submarine in cramped conditions and in mixed company. I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. The nature and politics of the t…

Thanks for sharing this fascinating take on how you experience the world. Personally, as a man, I have never found the need to worry about any of the issues you highlight when interacting with other genders. I wonder what makes our experiences so different?

What hilbert42 says is very relatable to me even if it never got so bad for me.

I can't stress enough how everything is different "when one can't 'go home' during off hours". I used to be an enlisted sailor, then an officer. It's sometimes hard to have a few minutes alone in an entire day (night included), especially on smaller or older ships. After a few months any small thing can become a very nasty fight very fast. The word "microagression" suddenly makes a lot of sense. I once got into a fight because some guy thought I had slightly moved his towel that was in front of my bunk. This man had been at sea on the ship for more than 6 month, I had joined mid-tour a month before.

I've seen a male-only boat (there were one or two female officers, which was accepted because of the bathroom configuration) get one female enlisted sailor, a talented and very professional young woman. Everything changed in one day. Though submariners are often a bit more mature than others, managing a mixed crew on a small ship is very different.

Remember the average age on a military ship is rarely above 25. Sexual harassment is not the hardest, since everyone is with everyone 24/7, most cases are very clear cut. I've seen a few very nasty cases (sexual predator that went undetected for months or year, a guy that wasn't reported despite a suspected rape attempt and went on to assault someone on his next ship under my command, a false rape claim) but it's mostly straightforward to handle. A lot of officers don't close their doors when doing personal review or other one-to-one interviews and conversations with female sailors but the paranoia mostly stops there.

Dealing with "regular" harassment, rumours, jealousy etc is way less simple with a mixed crew, regardless of the personal qualities of the people. And of course your management style has to be adapted. When you have more than a few (young) women in a team, you have to lead differently. (Women over 40 are rarely on the "bad" side (when there is a clear one) of those problems).

I've seen quite a few of those cases. Sometimes, we've been successful in stopping them before harm gets done, sometimes someone's life was ruined for months or years or people had to be transferred because trust had been broken too deep and some people couldn't work together anymore. And a few cases with legal proceedings (harassment lawsuit etc), but never handled one myself.

On a personal note I (male) have had to share a two beds room with a female for a few months. We didn't sleep a lot, and often not at the same time, never had any problems. It was a male-only boat with less than five women.

Hope this gives you an impression of what it can be like.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#118
post #5

This 2012 article mentions that the Royal Navy might have female submariners "next year". It happened in 2014: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/female-submariners-make-h... And here's the next article I found on the subject, from last year, looks like it's not going so well: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.opindia.com/2022/11/women-o...

Years ago I did a bit of speleology so I'm not afraid of confined spaces but as a male I'd be scared to spend time on a submarine in cramped conditions and in mixed company. I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. The nature and politics of the t…

> I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought.

Using banter for high-stress situations is quite a British thing. There's a story I was told about British troops during WWII in wet rat ridden trenches, cold and low on rations, having banter to keep morale high - much to the Americans surprise.

I can't liken my situation to theirs (thank goodness), but in a tough spot I was in male only company and we openly discussed who we would eat first, who we would keep around for company, etc.

> Times have changed, there's absolutely no way I would accept working in that situation today as it'd be just too risky. Similarly, I wouldn't expect my employer to allow me to work for eight hours per day under such risky conditions.

Unfortunately this rings true.

> Sure, women have rights to equality and I'd never deny them that right, but it seems to me that mixed company on a submarine is an 'explosive' environment and it's inevitable there will be trouble. (A group of males locked up and isolated without sex for three months but still in the tempting presence of women isn't natural.)

Not just that, but if an allegation is made (which is much more likely in this situation) then it's almost impossible to deal with. You can't isolate people from one another, you can't do any real investigation - it just sucks.

It's okay saying "believe all women", but I know at least two women now that have used claims of sexual assault because they had cheated on partners and got caught. The accused had the claims dropped against them, but lost their jobs and lives as a result.

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years ago I did a bit of speleology so I'm not afraid of confined spaces but as a male I'd be scared to spend time on a submarine in cramped conditions and in mixed company. I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. The nature and politics of the t…

The dynamic is completely different in mixed company. It used to be common for men and women to attend different universities. In fact, learning outcomes tend to be better in single sex education [0] and its not really surprising - everyone is more productive and focused. What’s surprising is how we don't realize the effectiveness of single sex education despite research, common sense, and tradition all pointing towa…

> In fact, learning outcomes tend to be better in single sex education

What about quality of socialisation, and how they fare later in life in terms of relationships

Re: Life on board a British nuclear submarine (2012)

#120
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years ago I did a bit of speleology so I'm not afraid of confined spaces but as a male I'd be scared to spend time on a submarine in cramped conditions and in mixed company. I reckon I'd be under constant stress in case I accidentally said something out of place unlike in all-male work environments I've worked in the past where banter and certain types of comment pass without thought. The nature and politics of the t…

It's interesting that just today The Guardian is running a story praising a new women only living space in London[1], a city where 81% of homeless, rough sleepers are men[2]. This chimes with the view that gender segregation is only seen as a bad thing when it's male only spaces. 1. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/aug/24/we-have... 2. https://www.statista.com/statistics/381373/london-homelessne...

Am struggling to see a connection between impoverished rough sleepers and a single expensive apartment development in genteel New Barnet having a covenant that its tenants must be women. I guess women wouldn't have to stretch credulity quite so far to show how male only spaces and defaults impact them...
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