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Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

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Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#641

Post by gattilorenz »

thmsths wrote: post #631
cwmma wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has a working system of direct bank transfers that are used all the time by most everyone. Europeans basically never use checks. A lot of Americans here are really confused because America does not have this infrastructure but it exists in Europe and people already use it all the time.

I am European too and while we have better payment systems than in the US it's far from perfect. If you're referring to a SEPA transfer it is at least an order of magnitude more friction than handing over cash to someone.

In NL the iDeal system and Tikkie have -according to me- less friction than cash, and surely not for any large amount if you are on the receiving side (no need to have any change, money won’t be fake, you won’t have to deposit it, you can request a specific amount or let it open for the other person). Here’s some info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDEAL https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropayment#Tikkie

They’re used by people of all age, as far as I can tell; the only time I witnessed a problem with it, was when a ~50 year old man had to pay me 600€ for stuff he bought, and I ended up having to take cash. Worth noting that person who paid me is a house painter, a job with a great potential for being paid cash to evade taxes to begin with…

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#642

Post by alphanullmeric »

dangus wrote: post #291
boeingUH60 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom from government surveillance and potential overreach? In reality, there’s hardly any 3,000 euros+ transaction where a business or individual will accept cash. That’s too much money to have on hand when a bank transfer is much more comfortable…still happens rarely though so I think this law is overreaching. Disclosure: I’m not Dutch nor European so my opinion hardly matters here.

I think your second sentence/paragraph points out exactly why this restriction is needed: the only people who would ever in their right mind transact in that much cash are very likely to be either avoiding taxation (a.k.a. stealing from the common taxpayer), or keeping money off the books to hide illegal activity. The average person isn't affected by this type of government surveillance and potential overreach becaus…

Do you believe that someone is stealing from you when they don’t allow you to take something from them?

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#643

Post by berniedurfee »

jkaplowitz wrote: post #520
ghaff wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, a lot of places won't readily (or at all) take $100 bills. The US is sort of in bill and coinage denomination stasis (denominations are essentially the same as they were over 50 years ago) though it's probably largely academic at this point given that many people basically don't use cash.

Fully agreed about $100 bills - even $50 bills are often rejected at places with lots of counterfeiting risk and/or mostly small purchases. Many people in the US basically don’t use cash, quite true - but in some parts of the country like NYC, many restaurants and convenience stores are cash-only or only accept cards with a higher price or a minimum purchase amount. So cash is still very commonly carried in NYC and s…

I believe it’s illegal to put a minimum sale price on credit card transactions in NY. Though I still see it frequently in NYC.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#644

Post by gambiting »

dmix wrote: post #638
me_me_me wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this thinking stems from different political environment. In EU we still have some power over politicians. US with its cemented dual party is basically a fasade of democracy. Thats why US people are so anti government. Everything is always set in us vs them context. Lets hope this trend will not affect eu countries too much.

Your position is that there is less unchecked power overreach in Europe? The famous home of the 'nanny state'?

Of course. That's my position as well. The difference is that in EU the "nanny state overreach" is usually what people actual want and has large democratic support. In US it's like the country shouts super loud about how free everyone is and then you have the real unchecked overreach in every single corner of the government and law enforcement. So yes, of course there's less unchecked overreach in EU(not in Europe).

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#645

Post by dmix »

tyrion wrote: post #639

More than the limit, what seems absurd to me is that businesses seem to be allowed to refuse cash as a form of payment. I am reading the translated version of the article, and it says: > A seller can decide not to accept cash above a certain amount. Or not accepting cash at all. Why would not accepting cash at all be allowed? What is the other alternative? Mastercard, visa etc? If for example, a super market chain st…

Not every detail of a business's operations needs to be regulated by the government. I can think of many undo costs this could impose on random small businesses, stripe + iphone should be more than enough for some random business working at some event, forcing them to carry a change box + manually write down every transcation/receipt, risk theft, etc. Always comes with the best intentions though.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#646

Post by latchkey »

jurynulifcation wrote: post #470
intotheabyss wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, yeah. If the entire world transacted in stablecoins, it would be a much much better UX.

It would probably be quite abysmal, considering the deflationary nature of most cryptocurrencies. Which stablecoin provider do you trust to secure your wealth at this point? After the downfall of FTX, Tether, Luna, Celsius, etc., who in the space can anyone trust? Which is the real sleight of hand of the entire "trustless" Crypto ecosystem...

> After the downfall of FTX, Tether, Luna, Celsius, etc., who in the space can anyone trust?

You're talking about centralized grifting as your examples and I'm glad they failed (well, technically Tether hasn't failed, yet).

If you are 'trusting' those companies... that is the problem. The point is that you shouldn't have to trust those companies, or the government, with your money.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#647

Post by ghaff »

someplaceguy wrote: post #636
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID. Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered. > A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. Anyone age 14 and up is required by law to be able to show an ID when asked. So yeah, everyone here has an ID. > My first bank account was…

> Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered. Yeah, that's not how it works in all European countries. Which can get really "interesting" in some cases, believe me (I've lived through that). I've also been requested proof of employment, which is also interesting when you're unemployed. In one of the countries, they said I can just give them proof of une…

>But this does not even compare to all the problems I've had where I've not been living in the same place stably for an extended period of time. It has been an absolute hell in some cases, because institutions (governments, banks, etc) simply do not account for this possibility. They all assume that you have a stable address of residence.

I haven't personally had this issue but I know someone who did in the US. No permanent address; they were doing a lot of traveling.

Nothing wrong/illegal about that. But, by the books, it means they can't get a driver's license and other important documents. So you basically have to lie. Either use a third-party digital nomad service (which I understand some states may flag) or find a trustworthy friend or relative to "live" with (who will forward important mail to you and vouch for you if needed--which is what they did). There are still potential issues with respect to things like jury duty but these can mostly work although they're almost certainly at least marginally fraudulent.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#648

Post by ghaff »

berniedurfee wrote: post #643
jkaplowitz wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agreed about $100 bills - even $50 bills are often rejected at places with lots of counterfeiting risk and/or mostly small purchases. Many people in the US basically don’t use cash, quite true - but in some parts of the country like NYC, many restaurants and convenience stores are cash-only or only accept cards with a higher price or a minimum purchase amount. So cash is still very commonly carried in NYC and s…

I believe it’s illegal to put a minimum sale price on credit card transactions in NY. Though I still see it frequently in NYC.

Maybe it's illegal or maybe it's against the store's merchant card agreement. In any case, in practice, retailers/restaurants/etc. can do pretty much whatever they want and probably get away with it so long as it's not too egregious.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#649

Post by culturestate »

bonzini wrote: post #623
culturestate wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think GP means “exists” as in “doesn’t require a third party to complete the value transfer.” If you give me a $20 bill, I can immediately exchange it for a case of beer at the bodega with no extra steps. If you give me a money order for $20, I need to find someone who is willing and/or able to convert that money order into a $20 bill before I can buy my beer.

But money orders can be treated as fiat if enough people agree to do it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniassegno

I mean so can, like, grams of lead but that’s not really the discussion we’re having at this moment.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#650

Post by frumper »

derfniw wrote: post #416
chollida1 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR? Privacy would be the biggest and most important reason and probably enough to end the conversation right here. But we can also include - ease of payment. Count out money and you're done. - vendor gets their money immediately, no 5 day hold like there could be on a check or money transfer -

At least in NL there is no such thing as a 5 day hold on a transfer. Typically these are instant, at worst next business day, and if you use something like "payment request" or "tikkie" all it involves is sending the buyer a link or posting a QR code somewhere to allow them to send money directly, instantly, to your account. No chance of making errors in the bank nr, you can pre-specify the required amount in the req…

What about clawbacks? If someone uses a stolen account to pay me, can that bank get the money back after I've sold the goods?
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