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Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

rijksoverheid.nl

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Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#631

Post by thmsths »

cwmma wrote: post #525
thmsths wrote: post #411

What I find really unfair in these situation is that the government is banning something but not really offering any alternative. There are plenty of transactions where using large amounts of cash is perfectly legitimate and the best option. What is the Dutch government suggesting here? Personal Checks have the obvious issue that the issuer can just default on them long after they have received the good or service. C…

Europe has a working system of direct bank transfers that are used all the time by most everyone. Europeans basically never use checks. A lot of Americans here are really confused because America does not have this infrastructure but it exists in Europe and people already use it all the time.

I am European too and while we have better payment systems than in the US it's far from perfect. If you're referring to a SEPA transfer it is at least an order of magnitude more friction than handing over cash to someone.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#632

Post by lost_tourist »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #166
SileNce5k wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice to see that there's no limit where I live which is Norway. Hopefully, there are no plans to introduce one.

I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR?

I would flip the script and say why is it a good idea to let the government have that much influence in your life without probable cause and a warrant to know what your financial transactions are?

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#633

Post by LevGoldstein »

input_sh wrote: post #463
kxrm wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are saying that in order to purchase these items you must have a bank account?

You wouldn't be able to receive a salary without a bank account.

Perhaps they are a self-employed mobile pharmacist.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#634

Post by pasc1878 »

tomrod wrote: post #615
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the entity able to put me to death legally The country that is the subject of this HN post does not have the death penalty. > That's a weird way to spell "banks and financial institutions." ’Cause I wasn’t spelling that. Within welfare states, public will to minimize tax evasion is widespread. In Europe steps are already being taken to improve transaction processing and democratize this area of the banking industry…

And rates of tax evasion are high enough to justify further entrenchment and subsidization of banking institutions? > The country that is the subject of this HN post does not have the death penalty. Fine, lifetime imprisonment on trumped up charges. Please don't be disingenuous, coercion is coercion whether the loss of liberty is death or imprisonment.

Perceived ates of tax evasion are high enough to justify further actions to make it harder to avoid tax.

They are definitely perceived high enough.

In Europe salary earners are taxed on the income as they receive it through Pay As You Earn and similar and it is difficult to avoid. The public wants it as difficult for all others to find it as difficult.

Whilst FAANG pay very little tax.

Even in the US Warren Buffet says he pays a lower rate of tax than his secretary.

The basic rule is that tax is progressive and rich people should pay a larger percentage than normal workers.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#635

Post by OkayPhysicist »

derfniw wrote: post #416
chollida1 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR? Privacy would be the biggest and most important reason and probably enough to end the conversation right here. But we can also include - ease of payment. Count out money and you're done. - vendor gets their money immediately, no 5 day hold like there could be on a check or money transfer -

At least in NL there is no such thing as a 5 day hold on a transfer. Typically these are instant, at worst next business day, and if you use something like "payment request" or "tikkie" all it involves is sending the buyer a link or posting a QR code somewhere to allow them to send money directly, instantly, to your account. No chance of making errors in the bank nr, you can pre-specify the required amount in the req…

"Next business day" is a huge amount of time relative to the "instantly" that the value changes hands in a cash transaction. Cash also eliminates any need for prying into the background of the buyer: Their proof of ability to pay and payment itself is the stack of cash they have in their hand.

If the government wants to eliminate the requirement of accepting large amounts of cash, I can see that. If you're not equipped to handle being paid in a large cash sum, it can definitely be inconvenient. But making the exchange of large sums of cash between two consenting parties illegal is bold-faced tyranny.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#636

Post by someplaceguy »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #567
dijit wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID. A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. (for example: I didn't when I got my first bank account). My first bank account was a deal my mother made with the bank where she acted as guarantor. having a right to a thing is not the same as actually getting it; there is a lot of anti-fraud legisl…

> You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID. Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered. > A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. Anyone age 14 and up is required by law to be able to show an ID when asked. So yeah, everyone here has an ID. > My first bank account was…

> Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

Yeah, that's not how it works in all European countries. Which can get really "interesting" in some cases, believe me (I've lived through that).

I've also been requested proof of employment, which is also interesting when you're unemployed. In one of the countries, they said I can just give them proof of unemployment benefits... which I don't have, because I left my job willingly.

And then they told me: "well, in that case you can get proof of unemployment from the municipality". Except... that I'm not even living in your damn country and the municipality where I live doesn't even know whether I'm working or not (why would they?!).

But this does not even compare to all the problems I've had when I've not been living in the same place stably for an extended period of time. It has been an absolute hell in some cases, because institutions (governments, banks, lawyers, etc) simply do not account for this possibility. They all assume that you have a stable address of residence.

In some countries you can't even receive some types of registered mail unless it is addressed exactly to where you are staying at that moment.

> You have a right to a basic account, not necessarily full service.

I don't think that's how it works. The governments have created a legal requirement for banks to provide minimum banking services, yes. But banks still have to comply with many other very strict requirements and customers may not be able to fulfill them, which prevents them from opening bank accounts.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#637

Post by vbezhenar »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #166
SileNce5k wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice to see that there's no limit where I live which is Norway. Hopefully, there are no plans to introduce one.

I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR?

Banks are not obliged to open accounts to everyone. So there are people who can't use banks, even if they want to.

You must accept plenty of agreements between bank and you, and there are only so many banks, so it's very possible for some people to find bank terms to be unacceptable for them.

Right now those people have cash as an alternative. Making it illegal removes some freedom from those people.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#638

Post by dmix »

me_me_me wrote: post #537
gambiting wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize someone would actually need to repurpose them to do such things, operation which would cost money and technical know how, right? They don't come with those capabilities out of the box. It's just such a weird argument that you're making. It's like saying that once roads disappear all the speed cameras are going to be repurposed to take pictures of you walking about to match facial data or something. Techni…

this thinking stems from different political environment. In EU we still have some power over politicians. US with its cemented dual party is basically a fasade of democracy. Thats why US people are so anti government. Everything is always set in us vs them context. Lets hope this trend will not affect eu countries too much.

Your position is that there is less unchecked power overreach in Europe? The famous home of the 'nanny state'?

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#639

Post by tyrion »

More than the limit, what seems absurd to me is that businesses seem to be allowed to refuse cash as a form of payment. I am reading the translated version of the article, and it says:

> A seller can decide not to accept cash above a certain amount. Or not accepting cash at all.

Why would not accepting cash at all be allowed? What is the other alternative? Mastercard, visa etc? If for example, a super market chain stops accepting cash and starts accepting only Visa, and for whatever reason I do not have a visa credit card, or worse I am banned by Visa,then I cannot buy groceries anymore? Also, I am not exactly sure everybody has access to a credit card. Maybe I am missing something here, but this seems a bit stupid/crazy to me.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#640

Post by tomrod »

pasc1878 wrote: post #634
tomrod wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And rates of tax evasion are high enough to justify further entrenchment and subsidization of banking institutions? > The country that is the subject of this HN post does not have the death penalty. Fine, lifetime imprisonment on trumped up charges. Please don't be disingenuous, coercion is coercion whether the loss of liberty is death or imprisonment.

Perceived ates of tax evasion are high enough to justify further actions to make it harder to avoid tax. They are definitely perceived high enough. In Europe salary earners are taxed on the income as they receive it through Pay As You Earn and similar and it is difficult to avoid. The public wants it as difficult for all others to find it as difficult. Whilst FAANG pay very little tax. Even in the US Warren Buffet sa…

Of course -- taxes should be progressive. But this doesn't address "rich people" evading taxes, it addresses transactions from people from all slices of the socioeconomic spectrum, with a cap that is entirely too low and invasive.

For example: if and when your country goes to pot, and you have a moral obligation to get your family out because we have this perceived notion of borders and sovereignty based on history we didn't agree to, a $3k block on transactions may well block you. We don't have to imagine very hard -- the US withdrawal from Afghanistan is a recent prime example. Social order is delicate.

As a more mundane example, perhaps I purchase an item at auction, art or contents of a storage locker. Reporting burden should be on the records of the facility and subject to occasional audit, not on every single transaction that goes through. That'd be like implementing a carbon toll for every mile that I use a bus, walk with shoes, ride a bike, or use any form of motor vehicle. There are much better ways to do that.

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