Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands • Hacker News Board

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#321

Post by dylan604 » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

ilyt wrote: post #231

motohagiography wrote: post #127

They can't control the black market in drugs, what makes them think controlling a black market in cash , which is a million times more desirable, will be any more successful? There's the small matter of millions of undocumented migrants entering Europe who will be trapped in this now-illegal-cash underclass, and these financial oppression laws just incentivise and create criminal networks to facilitate basic economy.…

> They can't control the black market in drugs, what makes them think controlling a black market in cash, which is a million times more desirable, will be any more successful? Well, for one, they control cash production > It's not a lot of money, and given inflation, diminishingly so. This is targeted at law abiding smallholding farmers where roadside transactions are often done in cash and farmers everywhere have a…

>Do you have any actual example of that ? What transaction do small farmers need to do along roadside for thousands of eur ? As kid of small farmer I don't remember anything like that ever happening.

While each transaction might be <3000, on a good weekend, I could see it totaling to be over that amount. At this point, would it be illegal for the farmer to show up to his bank to deposit 3001? Does the farmer now need to waste time to make 2 separate trips to make each deposit < 3000? Maybe take the spouse and kids along so they each make a smaller deposit? Does this require visiting multiple branches?

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#322

Post by Guvante » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

raincom wrote: post #263

ajmurmann wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not stop transactions for drugs, but it might make laundering the money harder and more necessary

It makes money laundering harder for low and intermediate level drug dealers. Netherlands is a major importer for drugs: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, and Hamburg are major ports for drugs. Drug wholesalers in EU would rather transport millions of euros abroad, and use these euros in Africa in order to buy gold and other metals from locals. All of sudden, one ends with gold, sell gold back to refiners and get paid with bank…

You assume that making things hard for low and intermediate drug dealers is inconsequential.

But drug wholesalers only exist thanks to low and intermediate drug dealers.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#323

Post by consp » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

HDMI_Cable wrote: post #276

ilyt wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can't control the black market in drugs, what makes them think controlling a black market in cash, which is a million times more desirable, will be any more successful? Well, for one, they control cash production > It's not a lot of money, and given inflation, diminishingly so. This is targeted at law abiding smallholding farmers where roadside transactions are often done in cash and farmers everywhere have a…

Right, but they don't control the distribution and transaction of cash. They may stop producing €500 notes—for example, but there is nothing they can do to stop these farmers or undocumented immigrants from bundling together >€3000 in smaller notes for use in paying rent, buying cars, or investments.

Fyi production of 500 euro bill was halted over three years ago.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#324

Post by qingcharles » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #144

mdrzn wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send it via bank? A quick and free bank transfer which also works out as "receipt" of payment.

How fast are bank transfers over there? In the US we have "same day" for small amounts, and a multiple day long clearing for bank to bank personal transfers for larger amounts, ie what you'd pay for a car. Then you'd need a bunch of their banking info. I don't know about your experience, but I'd like to limit the amount of PII I give to the type of folks I buy used vehicles from. With cash, you both go on your way wi…

Usually instant in Europe.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#325

Post by schnebbau » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

shellfishgene wrote: post #249

motohagiography wrote: post #127

They can't control the black market in drugs, what makes them think controlling a black market in cash , which is a million times more desirable, will be any more successful? There's the small matter of millions of undocumented migrants entering Europe who will be trapped in this now-illegal-cash underclass, and these financial oppression laws just incentivise and create criminal networks to facilitate basic economy.…

There are for sure tradeoffs here, but in Germany for example they recently made paying in cash for real estate illegal because it was obvious that almost all those cash transactions involved crime money of some sort. Edit: As noted below cash here refers to paper money. The same law also prohibits real estate purchase with gold, silver, diamonds or crypto currencies.

So people were handing over suitcases containing millions in cold hard cash!? Is there ever a legitimate reason to do that?

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#326

Post by z0r » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

sigzero wrote: post #236

thereddaikon wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a european but I do have an example. A few years back I purchased a project car in cash. I don't carry checks, who does anymore? And my bank would have given me grief trying to transfer an amount that large at once. I had tried before and it would trigger their fraud detection and give me headaches. Its good its there but can be a barrier when I'm just trying to buy something. So going to branch and withdrawi…

Easy workaround is that you do more than one cash payment.

Which is probably illegal!

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#327

Post by jlarocco » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #166

SileNce5k wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice to see that there's no limit where I live which is Norway. Hopefully, there are no plans to introduce one.

I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR?

Among other reasons: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/15/hold-ive-lost-count...

It's also just shitty to mandate a middle-man for transactions.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#328

Post by toenail » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

Scarblac wrote: post #278

calini wrote: post #43

I'm very much a fan of choice here. I haven't personally used cash more than twice in the last 3 years, I love the convenience of Apple/Google Pay, but cash clearly still needs to exist

Of course it needs to exist, but at the same time using it for huge numbers like 3000+ euros is in practice almost only done by criminals. It's a good balance imo.

You can easily spend 3k on a bike, motorcycle, car, a few hookers, high end restaurant with friends, and many other things. You're just regurgitating pro surveillance propaganda.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#329

Post by Scarblac » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

ClarityJones wrote: post #221

mdrzn wrote: post #53

The maximum limit for cash payments in Italy is 1000€, so 3k would still be a lot. Why would someone need to pay for 10k in cash? Where does that cash come from? 60% of the times, it's money laundering every time. edit: I suppose since I'm in EU and I'm only 30 I'm "used" to the 1k limit, while non-EU (or specifically USA) people might be grabbing their pitchforks.

Cash is money. Cash is immune to bank runs. If you have $10,000, then you have $10,000. If you deposit $10,000 in a bank, then you have $0 and a promise from a bank that has $1,000 and a promise (from somebody else) for $9,000.

Government insures personal bank accounts up to 100k euro. You have your 10k.

Re: Cash payments above €3000 to be outlawed in Netherlands

#330

Post by nolok » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:45 PM UTC

boeingUH60 wrote: post #216

throwaway2037 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am confused by your post. What are some good reasons to allow cash payments above 3000 EUR?

Freedom from government surveillance and potential overreach? In reality, there’s hardly any 3,000 euros+ transaction where a business or individual will accept cash. That’s too much money to have on hand when a bank transfer is much more comfortable…still happens rarely though so I think this law is overreaching. Disclosure: I’m not Dutch nor European so my opinion hardly matters here.

> Freedom from government surveillance and potential overreach?

With all due respect, the transactions above that rough amount is exactly those I would want the government to keep an eye on, while letting me buy stuff for a few hundreds freely and without having to report it.

There is pretty much no situation whatsoever when someone buys something for more than 3k€ where the absolute requirement to use cash is not linked to some shady reasons.