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China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

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281–290 of 395 posts

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#281

This isn't necessarily super bad in its own right even though it is a very large company and it signals that some of China's big developers are under water. The question is whether it is a harbinger or the whole of it. If the former there will be a domino effect just like what happened in 2008, but hopefully more limited to China. I imagine that 'heads will roll' is more than just a figurative expression here, Xi & c…

> What will Xi & co do to deflect blame?

What? All of their issues are explicitly done by Xi via the three red lines.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#282
post #255
post #191

The 200$ billion hole in CN real estate is comparable in size to the SVB signature US banking crisis. In that case US treasury policy was a bailout for uninsured depositors who are wealthy supporters of the ruling blue party. Most of the underwater property developers are wealthy patrons of the ruling red party in China and will ultimately receive similar government bailouts. Privatized gains and socialized losses it…

>In that case US treasury policy was a bailout for uninsured depositors who are wealthy supporters of the ruling blue party. I really doubt that David Sachs, Peter Thiel, and other wealthy right-libertarian VC bros support the "blue party".

ah yes, SV the rightwing stronghold

whats the practical influence of the libertarian in such environment? rules-for-thee; and looting

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#283
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the famous Asian Vietnamese ally, the Soviet Union.

South Vietnam was a US ally; subject to US sponsored coups when they didn't behave and ultimately were abandonned when the cost of war got too high.

And North Vietnam was... ?

A beacon of self determination and lack of foreign and imperial influence?

Oh, wait!

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To address these challenges, the Chinese government has enforced exit bans and placed these individuals under strict supervision. They are often required to return these funds to China, potentially under threat of reduced prison sentences. This sounds not right... but yeah... it is China. And China does not have other means to use like US to extradite fugitives or request the money back even it got all the evidence..…

To me, the use of exit bans and coercive measures to bring fugitives back to China does not seem unreasonable under specific circumstances. While employing these tactics for political reasons would be problematic, they serve as some of the only tools available to the Chinese government to act against corruption and embezzlement. These measures provide leverage and serve as a deterrent to prevent corrupt officials fro…

The other option that China has at its disposal is to introduce multiparty democracy with the rule of law and guarantees of civil rights. Most other countries would then be happy to extradite suspects to China.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#285
post #281

This isn't necessarily super bad in its own right even though it is a very large company and it signals that some of China's big developers are under water. The question is whether it is a harbinger or the whole of it. If the former there will be a domino effect just like what happened in 2008, but hopefully more limited to China. I imagine that 'heads will roll' is more than just a figurative expression here, Xi & c…

> What will Xi & co do to deflect blame? What? All of their issues are explicitly done by Xi via the three red lines.

Clearly the three red lines failed (as they were wont to do, they were too little and too late). So now someone needs to be blamed. There is no way that the Xi government will accept that they are in part culpable here (besides, there is no way in which the population could vote him out or that the government could fall, such as would happen in functioning democracies).

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#286
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL at accusing the US of industrial espionage in a discussion about China :-)) Nota bene, I'm convinced the US is spying. It's just what China is doing in terms of spying and forced industrial transfer makes the US stuff look kiddie play.

If that's true, it just means we're losing our edge. I'd say we're still tied, personally. Arizona and mainland China are both getting a TSMC plant.

The US doesn't do as much industrial espionage, I'm fairly certain of it.

Why?

The US just brain drains countries.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#287
post #79

This is really a breathtaking legal situation. Bankruptcy law typically trumps virtually all other laws, with not much to guide the court's discretion. International bankruptcies are even weirder. In this case, US bankruptcy law has the power to intervene in ongoing bankruptcy proceedings in Hong Kong, Cayman's, etc. Bankruptcy law protects debt-holders and the company, but not other stakeholders. As far as I know un…

This is really a breathtaking legal situation. Yeah, not really. They issued USD debt and chose NYC as the legal jurisdiction to make their bond more attractive to overseas buyers. There are probably a myriad of overseas entities involved. It is very unlikely this will spread back to Mainland China. Bankruptcy law typically trumps virtually all other laws, with not much to guide the court's discretion. No, sovereignt…

Excellent point about sovereignty and the absurd Credit Suisse merger.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#288
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can a declining population selling mostly commoditized goods support ever increasing property prices It's pretty simple. If you believed China was going to keep growing at 10% per year indefinitely - then the property prices were a bargain. I think you needed to be mathematically challenged to believe that, but a lot of people did, or at least thought everyone else just assumed it would happen and they could ge…

It was more like there was no alternative. Capital controls prevent regular Chinese investors (those without special Party connections) from taking their money out of the country. The domestic stock market is a joke. Banks pay low interest rates. So, the only thing they can do with their money is speculate in residential real estate.

Exactly this.

Consequence of capital controls.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#289
post #161

I’m never sure if news about China’s upcoming economic problems is written because such an event is actually coming or if the media writes it just for the clicks.

You can actual build a career by just keep predicting the upcoming economic crashes in China, e.g. Gordon Chang has been doing this for decades - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_G._Chang his book is a great joy to read after 22 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coming_Collapse_of_China It is so laughable to the extent that many Chinese argue that those journalists and writers are paid by the CCP to brainw…

Now even Gordon joined DeSantis team!

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#290

The Chinese government's approach to dealing with failing real-estate companies, including Evergrande, is distinct from typical Western bailouts. In China, the strategy often involves allowing such companies to default in a controlled manner. Given that the major lenders and banks are state-owned , this essentially means that the government bears the loss through these institutions (what else can happen anyway??) . A…

It’s interesting we hear the terms “bail out” when connected with how the US managed major institutional collapse. However from what I experienced on the street during these “bail outs,” Lehman, Bear, SVB, First Republic no longer exist. Their assets were salvaged and remaining functional assets acquired. The fed, treasury, and other institutions involved in the bailout ended up making handsome profits from the reperformance of the distressed assets they pulled into their balance sheets.

The only bail out was for the global participants, not just banks but everyone with an asset that depends on the orderly function of the financial system even during periods of distress. “Tax payers” paid nothing, and benefited from the recovery from the disorderly Lehman collapse and the credit squeeze that caused. There’s a lot of speculation that the relatively mild inflation the US experienced post pandemic was due to all the QE and other moves the government and governmental bodies did, as well as pandemic stimulus. I’ve yet to see the effects clearly disentangled from the systemic breakdown of logistics during the pandemic which have only fairly recently ironed out. Certainly all the cheap cash caused some inflation, but what a small price to pay compared to what everyone faced.

I think the issue with the situation in China is the assets held by these investment vehicles are never going to reperform. They’re piles of paper and empty buildings rotting with no present or future purpose. They’ve sucked up immense amounts of public money passed through the system in various ways into fake investments, and their value will simply evaporate leaving behind a desperate situation - cities and town throughout China burdened with useless infrastructure. It’s been brewing since at least 2007. But it doesn’t start and end with real estate - there are enormous infrastructure projects and bad international loans sprawling the planet that under scrutiny won’t stand up. Chinese credit spreads, where they are priceable, will have to blow up, and where they aren’t the opaque risks will sew structural and systemic lack of confidence.

I hope China can navigate whatever unwinding has to happen, and I sincerely hope it doesn’t devolve into political and social instability fueling geopolitical strawman conflicts to distract from domestic problems. While I really wish China could find a way to let its people be actually free, I don’t think a multipolar world is necessarily a bad thing. An ascendant China as more than a factory floor for the west provides a good opportunity for trade and competition, spurring growth and innovation everywhere.

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