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China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

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Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#261
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the US supposed to make these countries as prosperous as itself? Please do list all the prosperous Chinese or Russian allies. I'll wait.

Many have gotten rich of the Chinese boom - from Singapore to Australia - from Apple to Tesla.

I said allies.

Those people you tell, in writing, signed by your highest authorities: if your people start dying at the hands of another country, our people will start dying with them.

Talk is cheap.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#262
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to be worth book value to be worth more than the outstanding loan principal. This is also why it can make sense to pay the bank in real estate. The bank doesn't need to sell it immediately because they don't need to pay a mortgage so they can just sit on it and collect rental income until they can find a buyer. Another alternative is for the real estate trust to sell new shares into the market and use…

Does this actually happen? A bank that owns real estate and collects rental income on it?

This happens all the time, they pony up the money and you pay interest on the loan.

In Dutch, interest is actually called 'rente'.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#263
post #67
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government control over reproduction leads to unintended consequences? Who would've seen that coming?

Except it’s been loosened after decades, and suddenly the economy tanks? The more likely explanation is Xi’s authoritarianism and crackdown on the private sector. Anyone with a brain in China is trying to get their money and themselves out of the country.

It has been loosened because of the inevitable damage it is causing. Look at china's demographic pyramid. Their widest demography is 45-60. Their birthrates are very low. As those people age and there are fewer workers entering the workforce it will lead to social problems (as it did in japan and currently is in the west)

That's not to say there isnt a big crackdown on just about everything right now. There is. Bankers forced to read xi jinping thought and write essays on it monthly etc.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#264
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"real estate assets everywhere but China now look better in the long term." They do not look better. They look inflated and unaffordable. If not fixed this will have social consequences at some point and it won't be pretty.

Housing can't be inflated and unaffordable at the same time. Someone is buying properties, driving prices higher. Those someone can definitely afford housing.

The word "affordable" means "not expensive".

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was never about money or trade it was all about keeping asians down and dependent. Thats way too much simplification. For starters there isn't a level playing field. Any Chinese company can start a company in the west but if a western company wants to start a company in China you can either start a "second class" entity (a WFOE) or if you want a level playing field with the locals you can use a joint venture but…

The previous mandate of a 50% joint venture in the automotive sector is outdated. Take for example Tesla in China, which operates without a joint venture. Similarly, BMW's Chinese operations are only 30% owned by a local entity, deviating from the earlier 50% norm. Despite certain industry-specific regulations, it's essential to recognize that China aligns well with its WTO obligations—a framework that the U.S. and o…

> it's essential to recognize that China aligns well with its WTO obligations

There is no way in hell I (as a foreigner in China) will win an intellectual property dispute from a Chinese company in China.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#266

The Chinese government's approach to dealing with failing real-estate companies, including Evergrande, is distinct from typical Western bailouts. In China, the strategy often involves allowing such companies to default in a controlled manner. Given that the major lenders and banks are state-owned , this essentially means that the government bears the loss through these institutions (what else can happen anyway??) . A…

To address these challenges, the Chinese government has enforced exit bans and placed these individuals under strict supervision. They are often required to return these funds to China, potentially under threat of reduced prison sentences. This sounds not right... but yeah... it is China. And China does not have other means to use like US to extradite fugitives or request the money back even it got all the evidence..…

To me, the use of exit bans and coercive measures to bring fugitives back to China does not seem unreasonable under specific circumstances. While employing these tactics for political reasons would be problematic, they serve as some of the only tools available to the Chinese government to act against corruption and embezzlement. These measures provide leverage and serve as a deterrent to prevent corrupt officials from fleeing China with substantial illicit gains [0].

This approach is not a secret; it is well-publicized within China and internationally. For example, the BBC reported on China's "Fox Hunt" operation in 2014, although the tone of the reporting has notably changed over time [1][2].

Despite China's extensive global connections, it faces significant legal constraints in its efforts to establish extradition treaties with major countries. Given the current international political climate, the prospects of forming such treaties appear to be minimal. In this context, what other options does China have at its disposal to combat corruption and hold individuals accountable?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30358060 [2] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65537553

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#267

The Chinese government's approach to dealing with failing real-estate companies, including Evergrande, is distinct from typical Western bailouts. In China, the strategy often involves allowing such companies to default in a controlled manner. Given that the major lenders and banks are state-owned , this essentially means that the government bears the loss through these institutions (what else can happen anyway??) . A…

Their housing market was a ponzi scheme, in that they took money to build developments, but used that money to market new development. Local authorities got their cuts by rezoning areas.

Very little likely escaped the country. It's all in country fraud.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#268
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does, but on a global scale this only works as long as there are enough countries with high birth rates. And birth rates are going down basically everywhere.

They are up in "undeveloped" countries.

They are higher in less developed countries, but still falling.

Go to https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate and select some regions, see for yourself. Africa as a whole has declining fertility rates. Even if you look a high-growth countries such as Niger or Democratic Republic of Congo, the fertility rate has been declining in the last 20-30 years, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a country where it has gone up.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some bold claims with little evidence. GDP capita flattened at 13k is hardly “escaped the middle income trap”. IPs can be harmful to growth but then again China has never shown any intent to enforce IPs of western origin. There are no evidence of the US wanting to “keep asians down” - many of USAs asian trading partners enjoy less trade regulation. The “trade war” might be counterproductive but was a, imo mild, respo…

> GDP capita flattened at 13k Flattened? It's growing something like 5% per year.

We really don't know how fast the Chinese economy is growing. The numbers are largely made up by Party functionaries with no oversight; they often exaggerate and falsely claim to be meeting goals in order to keep their jobs. Independent analysis based on satellite imagery and import/export volumes indicates the growth rate is probably lower, but no one knows for sure.

Re: China’s property giant Evergrande files for bankruptcy protection in Manhattan

#270

The Chinese government's approach to dealing with failing real-estate companies, including Evergrande, is distinct from typical Western bailouts. In China, the strategy often involves allowing such companies to default in a controlled manner. Given that the major lenders and banks are state-owned , this essentially means that the government bears the loss through these institutions (what else can happen anyway??) . A…

> This sounds not right... but yeah... it is China. And China does not have other means to use like US to extradite fugitives or request the money back even it got all the evidence... exit-ban and blackmailing are the only way China can go...

That's horseshit. China is widely known to operate police/spies all over the world to forcibly repatriate people that it considers Chinese citizens against their will...in blatant violation of the laws of those countries.

The threat is "we'll come and get you, wherever you go, and if we have to nobody will ever hear from you again".

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