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Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

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Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#281

Post by dang »

joenot443 wrote: post #207
dang wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes, many sites are banned on HN. Others are penalized (see e.g. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... ). None of this is secret, though we don't publish the lists themselves. Edit: about 67k sites are banned on HN. Here's a random selection of 10 of them: vodlockertv.com biggboss.org infoocode.com newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com moringajuice.wordpress.com surrogacymumbai.com max…

That's a lot of domains! Did you source that from some other list, or is that a result of 67k individual entries? Either way, I appreciate it. Out of curiosity, what's the rationale for blocking archive.is? Legal reasons I assume?

It's not sourced from any other list, it's just what mod actions and software filters have accumulated over the years.

Re archive.is - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130177

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#282

Post by dang »

mutant_glofish wrote: post #78
dang wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't banned in comments - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... , https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... , etc. We probably banned it for submissions because we want original sources at the top level.

> We probably banned it for submissions because we want original sources at the top level. Then why web.archive.org isn't also banned? [1] And what about things which aren't available from the original source anymore? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130420

That's a good question. See https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... and dredmorbius's comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37138346 re archive.org.

As for "why archive.org and not archive.is" - that's a bit of a borderline call, but gouggoug pointed out some of it at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130890. The set of articles which (a) are no longer on the web, (b) are not on archive.org, but (c) are on archive.is, isn't that big. Paywall workarounds are a different thing, because the original URLs are still on the web (albeit paywalled). For those, we want the original URL at the top level, because it's important for the domain to appear beside the title.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#283

Post by dredmorbius »

mutant_glofish wrote: post #78
dang wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't banned in comments - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... , https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... , etc. We probably banned it for submissions because we want original sources at the top level.

> We probably banned it for submissions because we want original sources at the top level. Then why web.archive.org isn't also banned? [1] And what about things which aren't available from the original source anymore? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130420

The Internet Archive is permitted when the original site or content is unavailable.

Otherwise, HN's rule is to "submit the original source": https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

I suppose that might be clarified as "most original or canonical", but Because Reasons HN's guidelines are written loosely and interpreted according to HN's Prime Directive: "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=508153>.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#284

Post by dredmorbius »

dang wrote: post #282
mutant_glofish wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We probably banned it for submissions because we want original sources at the top level. Then why web.archive.org isn't also banned? [1] And what about things which aren't available from the original source anymore? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130420

That's a good question. See https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... and dredmorbius's comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37138346 re archive.org. As for "why archive.org and not archive.is" - that's a bit of a borderline call, but gouggoug pointed out some of it at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130890 . The set of articles which (a) are no longer on the web, (b) are not o…

You're apparently in the middle of editing this as I'm replying, but I suspect I'm close to the mark here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37138346>

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#285

Post by FireBeyond »

epistasis wrote: post #251

This is what I have come to expect from every person that calls themselves a "free speech absolutist." What they actually believe is that they should be able to say whatever they want and do whatever they want, personally, without any consequences for themselves. There is no grander principle than "my ability to do what I want and exert power over others however I want, without critique or criticism." I really wish t…

Disclaimer: I am not comparing Twitter to warlords, dictators or genocide. But this quote (from Lord of War) really encapsulates a lot of what you say:

> Yuri Orlov: [Narrating] Every faction in Africa calls themselves by these noble names - Liberation this, Patriotic that, Democratic Republic of something-or-other... I guess they can't own up to what they usually are: the Federation of Worse Oppressors Than the Last Bunch of Oppressors. Often, the most barbaric atrocities occur when both combatants proclaim themselves Freedom Fighters.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#286

Post by dang »

dredmorbius wrote: post #284
dang wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question. See https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... and dredmorbius's comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37138346 re archive.org. As for "why archive.org and not archive.is" - that's a bit of a borderline call, but gouggoug pointed out some of it at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130890 . The set of articles which (a) are no longer on the web, (b) are not o…

You're apparently in the middle of editing this as I'm replying, but I suspect I'm close to the mark here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37138346 >

Yup!

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#287

Post by mrguyorama »

xNeil wrote: post #269
mrguyorama wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The HN crowd is not your average layman - it's largely well read and educated people. People need to stop thinking this. There's no filter in front of the HN sign up. The community here is the same as the community anywhere else on the internet. We aren't special

That's a very valid point! I simply assumed due to the subject matter (coding discussion, in depth tech industry discussions), the average HN reader would be more well read as opposed to your average X user.

Why? Why do you believe that someone familiar with coding discussion and tech industry discussions to be more likely to be well read than an average person? I am explicitly asking you to reconsider these assumptions, think about where they come from, and think if they have any real data to back them up at all

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#288

Post by dang »

aaomidi wrote: post #26
mutant_glofish wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you don't see that as censorship?

This forum never said they’re a free speech haven.

That's true, but it's a bit of an interesting question because "free speech" has different meanings. The thing to understand about HN is that we're trying to optimize for one thing: intellectual curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). Given that, we're not "free speech" in the sense of "post anything about anything" - we have to moderate spam, flamewar, lame comments like "ok boomer", etc., because those detract from curious discussion.

On the other hand, no single political or ideological position has a monopoly on intellectual curiosity either—so by the same principle, HN can't be moderated for political or ideological position.

It's tricky because working this way conflicts with how everyone's mind works. When people see a politically charged post X that they don't like, or when they see a politically charged post Y that they do like, but which we've moderated, it's basically irresistible to jump to the conclusion "the mods are biased". This is because what we see in the first place is conditioned by our preferences - we're more likely to notice and to put weight on things we dislike (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). People with opposite preferences notice opposite data points and therefore "see" opposite biases. It's the same mechanism either way.

In reality, we're just trying to solve an optimization problem: how can you operate a public internet forum to maximize intellectual curiosity? That's basically it. It's not so easy to solve though.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#289

Post by scientya »

PenguinCoder wrote: post #236

Additional details I wrangled for this rabbit hole. I don't think it's t.co doing this intentionally, but rather poor handling of 'do you have our cookies or not'. Everyone in this thread _proving things_ without taking into account the complexity of the modern web. man curl -b, --cookie (HTTP) Pass the data to the HTTP server in the Cookie header. It is supposedly the data previously received from the server in a "S…

Amazing that this poor handling of 'do you have our cookies or not' only affects news papers and social media sites that Elon doesn't like! What a coincidence.

Re: Tell HN: t.co is adding a five-second delay to some domains

#290

Post by lapcat »

mzs wrote: post #272
kens wrote: post #15

I can confirm. NYT shows a five-second redirect delay: "wget https://t.co/4fs609qwWt ". It redirects to gov.uk immediately: "wget https://t.co/iigzas6QBx "

I don't see it: % curl -gsSIw'foo %{time_total}\n' -- https://t.co/4fs609qwWt https://t.co/iigzas6QBx | grep '^\(HTTP/\)\|\(location: \)\|\(foo \)' HTTP/2 301 location: https://nyti.ms/453cLzc foo 0.119295 HTTP/2 301 location: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-acknowledges-acts-of-genocide- committed-by-daesh-against-yazidis foo 0.037376

I think Twitter, err, X, just turned off the delay now that it's getting big media attention. I could reproduce it over and over again a little earlier, but now I can't anymore: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37138161

[Edit:] I'm still seeing it with threads.net:

  curl -v -A 'Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_15_7) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/16.6 Safari/605.1.15' https://t.co/DzIiCFp7Ti
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