If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban • Hacker News Board

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#101

Post by woooooo » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:57 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #95

woooooo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But someone who's just passing through, the founder's daughter btw, and Huawei has no manufacturing in Canada that I'm aware of? She wasn't shipping stuff out of Canada to Iran, the problem is that Huawei generally does business there. It's a "rule by law" situation if they're grabbing her for things her company does outside of US/Canadian borders.

Huawei decided to import HP components from the USA and re-export them to Iran to get around US sanctions. Huawei also has a presence in the USA, but in general the USA subjects any company re-exporting American stuff to sanctioned countries as breaking American law, and actually so does China. Now...let's say some American executive happened to be in China and China accused this company of re-exporting something mad…

To be clear, I'm not comparing China and the US broadly.

I'm saying with the Huawei exec, we started it and we were over the line. Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country, just because we had the opportunity to grab her. Almost any other topic they are worse than us on legal fairness issues.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#102

Post by o1y32 » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:58 AM UTC

woooooo wrote: post #85

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither she nor the nation of China are party to sanctions on Iran. She's subject to US law, and the consequences thereof. > that's not great moral ground It's a question of law, not morality. The rule of law is applied pretty fairly in the US and backstopped by the democratic process, whereas it's applied arbitrarily by Chinese dictatorial leadership when it suits them. That's where the moral ground lies. What you…

Why is she subject to US export law? Chinese citizen on Canadian soil who was not personally exporting anything at that moment. Do you consider yourself subject to Chinese export law? I know, empire, we can do what we want, but like I said. Shaky moral ground.

Maybe spend a little time understanding how the law in question works and how it applied specifically to that case. Everything followed the procedure from what I can tell.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#103

Post by seanmcdirmid » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 4:02 AM UTC

woooooo wrote: post #101

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huawei decided to import HP components from the USA and re-export them to Iran to get around US sanctions. Huawei also has a presence in the USA, but in general the USA subjects any company re-exporting American stuff to sanctioned countries as breaking American law, and actually so does China. Now...let's say some American executive happened to be in China and China accused this company of re-exporting something mad…

To be clear, I'm not comparing China and the US broadly. I'm saying with the Huawei exec, we started it and we were over the line. Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country, just because we had the opportunity to grab her. Almost any other topic they are worse than us on legal fairness issues.

The arrest by Canada (not the USA) was justified on Canada's part because of their extradition treaty with us and the USA had a warrant for her arrest. Due process in Canada decided that the Americans didn't have a case for extradition, which was also their right. One can argue that America should have seen the flaws in the extradition case that Canadian due process did, but the case never went to trial in the USA so we will never know if due process in the USA would have come to a similar conclusion as well.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#104

Post by Guvante » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 4:02 AM UTC

foverzar wrote: post #60

LeoNatan25 wrote: post #9

Don't travel to China.

And miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths? Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else. Because honestly: > The typical reasons for the Chinese government imposing an exit ban that prohibits a foreigner from leaving China is for allegedly committing a crime, allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with…

Did any of those people owe money to an American company or were they all detained for criminal offenses?

The fact that sometimes you can't leave isn't the story. The fact that a citizen business can report theft and block your right to go home is.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#105

Post by foverzar » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 4:04 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #100

foverzar wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian. It's often spying accusations for individuals or sanctions related for businesspeople, so... > Russians also get arrested in China Of course. Everyone gets arrested everywhere from time to time. My point that China isn't in any way unique in this matter. > In general, prefer rule of law countries and avoid rule by law co…

People get arrested for lots of things, sometimes it is taking pictures that they shouldn't take, but had no idea that they couldn't take those pictures. In China, you can get arrested for taking pictures of pretty much anywhere, subject to whims of course (they can't put all tourists in prison or they would have no tourist industry). In America, you can take pictures of anything you want as long as you are allowed t…

On the other hand, making an unconscious wrong move when interacting with a cop in America can legally get you killed on spot.

My whole point is that it is entirely subjectivist and boils down to whatever people are used to.

If you want everything to be the way you are used to - maybe traveling just isn't your thing and that's ok.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#106

Post by woooooo » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 4:07 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #103

woooooo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I'm not comparing China and the US broadly. I'm saying with the Huawei exec, we started it and we were over the line. Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country, just because we had the opportunity to grab her. Almost any other topic they are worse than us on legal fairness issues.

The arrest by Canada (not the USA) was justified on Canada's part because of their extradition treaty with us and the USA had a warrant for her arrest. Due process in Canada decided that the Americans didn't have a case for extradition, which was also their right. One can argue that America should have seen the flaws in the extradition case that Canadian due process did, but the case never went to trial in the USA so…

I'm sure the Chinese have a bunch of legalese bullshit for why they locked up those innocent Canadians, but we can look through it and see the real score. Right?

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#107

Post by richbell » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 4:09 AM UTC

woooooo wrote: post #101

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huawei decided to import HP components from the USA and re-export them to Iran to get around US sanctions. Huawei also has a presence in the USA, but in general the USA subjects any company re-exporting American stuff to sanctioned countries as breaking American law, and actually so does China. Now...let's say some American executive happened to be in China and China accused this company of re-exporting something mad…

To be clear, I'm not comparing China and the US broadly. I'm saying with the Huawei exec, we started it and we were over the line. Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country, just because we had the opportunity to grab her. Almost any other topic they are worse than us on legal fairness issues.

> Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country

Russia has government-sanctioned hacking groups who operate outside of the US. If a member of one of those groups, known to law enforcement, traveled to the USA or Canada do you feel it would be unjust to arrest them?

This is a flimsy argument for why the Huawei CFO being detained was unjust, IMO.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#108

Post by canucker2016 » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 4:11 AM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #49

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Legal experts say virtually any party to a civil dispute in China involving a foreign national can ask local police to add their opponent’s name to a national database of exit bans that police check at every airport, railway station and other border crossing... That is certainly not how things are in most Western countries.

Except in Canada where huawei's executive got the same treatment, or the US where the no fly list exists with little recourse.

According to https://www.reuters.com/technology/key-events-huawei-cfo-men...

A court in the USA had issued an arrest warrant for the Huawei CFO.

The USA had to issue a request for Canada to detain her for extradition to the USA due to the arrest warrant.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#109

Post by woooooo » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 4:13 AM UTC

richbell wrote: post #107

woooooo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I'm not comparing China and the US broadly. I'm saying with the Huawei exec, we started it and we were over the line. Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country, just because we had the opportunity to grab her. Almost any other topic they are worse than us on legal fairness issues.

> Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country Russia has government-sanctioned hacking groups who operate outside of the US. If a member of one of those groups, known to law enforcement, traveled to the USA or Canada do you feel it would be unjust to arrest them? This is a flimsy argument for why the Huawei CFO being detained was unjust, IMO.

But british hacking groups would never ever be arrested for doing the same thing.

Politics exists and it drives these decisions, there's nothing more hideous than someone who exercises power to destroy lives and pretends its merely procedure.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#110

Post by richbell » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 4:18 AM UTC

woooooo wrote: post #109

richbell wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country Russia has government-sanctioned hacking groups who operate outside of the US. If a member of one of those groups, known to law enforcement, traveled to the USA or Canada do you feel it would be unjust to arrest them? This is a flimsy argument for why the Huawei CFO being detained was unjust, IMO.

But british hacking groups would never ever be arrested for doing the same thing. Politics exists and it drives these decisions, there's nothing more hideous than someone who exercises power to destroy lives and pretends its merely procedure.

> But british hacking groups would never ever be arrested for doing the same thing.

Sure they would. What makes you think otherwise?