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If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

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Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#81

Post by seanmcdirmid »

foverzar wrote: post #60
LeoNatan25 wrote: post #9

Don't travel to China.

And miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths? Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else. Because honestly: > The typical reasons for the Chinese government imposing an exit ban that prohibits a foreigner from leaving China is for allegedly committing a crime, allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with…

> given that Russians are regularly arrested by the US

I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian. Russians also get arrested in China, it usually involves some alcohol at some nightclub and maybe concerns girls. The Chocolate Bar behind Ritan park in Beijing's Russian district was a pretty intense place.

> So what, don't go to the US or countries that extradite there? I don't think so either.

In general, prefer rule of law countries and avoid rule by law countries if you are worried about fair treatment. Even if they aren't perfect, you have a much better chance of being treated fairly in a rule of law country (China explicitly rejects rule of law as a governing principle, which is why their constitution can guarantee freedom of speech, the press, and religion, without it coming off as inconsistent).

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#82

Post by woooooo »

richbell wrote: post #80
woooooo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying we did it to their people first, and then they responded tit-for-tat. If you're selectively outraged at their response, ignoring what we did to provoke it... that starts sounding awfully motivated. And, yes, arresting non-citizens for insufficient loyalty to our state is immoral unless there's a war on, in which case you can shoot them. They never pledged loyalty and are not breaking any faith.

> I'm saying we did it to their people first, and then they responded tit-for-tat. This is being reductive and making a false equivalence. These scenarios are not comparable: 1. Arresting an executive of a company that intentionally evaded sanctions and provided supplies to a country that is hostile to the US. 2. Arresting two random Canadian citizens, who are of no importance, and holding them as political prisoners…

Let's flip it and see how different they are. China sanctions France. Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran?

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#83

Post by foverzar »

nyokodo wrote: post #67
foverzar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths? Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else. Because honestly: > The typical reasons for the Chinese government imposing an exit ban that prohibits a foreigner from leaving China is for allegedly committing a crime, allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with…

> This is something that I would expect visiting literally any country. To an extent, yes. However, context is key as the fairness and/or arbitrariness of those laws and how they are enforced vary wildly between countries. Merely avoiding breaking the law is a lot more difficult in an outright fascist dictatorship surveillance state like China than even the most surveillance happy western nations. So, while you shoul…

The matter of "fairness and/or arbitrariness" is entirely subjectivist.

Visiting a foreign culture is always a dance across a minefield if you are careless and don't bother researching how to be a proper guest.

For example, experienced tourists from my country visiting the US recommend thoroughly researching the rules and protocol of interacting with the police, including properly managing your body language and being VERY conscious about not making unconscious moves you might be used to (moving your hands, reaching for pockets or gloves compartment) - all that just so that you don't get accidentally shot and killed (completely legally!)

Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns?

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#84

Post by seanmcdirmid »

woooooo wrote: post #82
richbell wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm saying we did it to their people first, and then they responded tit-for-tat. This is being reductive and making a false equivalence. These scenarios are not comparable: 1. Arresting an executive of a company that intentionally evaded sanctions and provided supplies to a country that is hostile to the US. 2. Arresting two random Canadian citizens, who are of no importance, and holding them as political prisoners…

Let's flip it and see how different they are. China sanctions France. Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran?

If China said: all businesses in China must not do business in France, and then some business person working in China for an American company decided the company would send Chinese components to France anyways, they would be thrown in jail fairly quickly.

This is actually a pretty common restriction for companies operating in China. There are lots of rules they have to follow, that they wouldn't need to follow if they weren't operating in China.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#85

Post by woooooo »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #79
woooooo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither she nor the nation of China are party to sanctions on Iran. They have no obligations to follow American foreign policy. If you're saying, ultimately, "because we can", then fine but that's not great moral ground.

> Neither she nor the nation of China are party to sanctions on Iran. She's subject to US law, and the consequences thereof. > that's not great moral ground It's a question of law, not morality. The rule of law is applied pretty fairly in the US and backstopped by the democratic process, whereas it's applied arbitrarily by Chinese dictatorial leadership when it suits them. That's where the moral ground lies. What you…

Why is she subject to US export law? Chinese citizen on Canadian soil who was not personally exporting anything at that moment.

Do you consider yourself subject to Chinese export law?

I know, empire, we can do what we want, but like I said. Shaky moral ground.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#86

Post by defrost »

winrid wrote: post #72
canucker2016 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as you or any relation/acquaintance/company/nation you belong to do not offend China, you're cool. Case in point: the two Michaels from Canada detained 'suddenly' after a Huawei executive was detained in Canada in relation to a US govt case: https://globalnews.ca/news/8224094/canada-china-two-michaels... Though a third Canadian had his conviction retried to a worse sentence - death.

Did that person try to sell drugs in China? Pretty well known that's a death penalty.

They tried to smuggle Chinese sourced drugs to Australia - but that's not the issue.

They were charged, went to trial, sentenced to 15 years and appealed.

When the appeal failed the original court upped the sentence to a death sentence.

This appeared be a violation of a Chinese "no additional sentence for appeal" rule and a petty example of hostage diplomacy wrt the Canadian Government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schellenberg_smuggling_inciden...

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#87

Post by richbell »

woooooo wrote: post #82
richbell wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm saying we did it to their people first, and then they responded tit-for-tat. This is being reductive and making a false equivalence. These scenarios are not comparable: 1. Arresting an executive of a company that intentionally evaded sanctions and provided supplies to a country that is hostile to the US. 2. Arresting two random Canadian citizens, who are of no importance, and holding them as political prisoners…

Let's flip it and see how different they are. China sanctions France. Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran?

> Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen

She was a C-suite executive of Huawei, not some random employee.

> Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran?

If an American company intentionally evaded sanctions and did something they knew China wouldn't like, and then a C-suite executive of that company traveled to China or an affiliated country and was detained, that would be entirely their fault.

I don't think you're making the point that you think you are.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#88

Post by woooooo »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #84
woooooo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's flip it and see how different they are. China sanctions France. Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran?

If China said: all businesses in China must not do business in France, and then some business person working in China for an American company decided the company would send Chinese components to France anyways, they would be thrown in jail fairly quickly. This is actually a pretty common restriction for companies operating in China. There are lots of rules they have to follow, that they wouldn't need to follow if the…

But someone who's just passing through, the founder's daughter btw, and Huawei has no manufacturing in Canada that I'm aware of?

She wasn't shipping stuff out of Canada to Iran, the problem is that Huawei generally does business there.

It's a "rule by law" situation if they're grabbing her for things her company does outside of US/Canadian borders.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#89

Post by canucker2016 »

woooooo wrote: post #78
canucker2016 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two wrongs don't make a right. (I am bursting to edit my comment to make it more punny in light of the Asian connection of the comment material, but at least I am taking the high road here - but know this, I am chuckling to myself and don't play the race card, you can't trump me)

Absolutely true but it sounds like people think there's only one wrong here.

The US govt seemed to play by the international rule book - they claimed that Huawei knowingly did business with Iran. From memory, Huawei didn't want to respond and execs avoided going to the US.

So the US asked Canada to detain the Huawei CFO when she had a layover in Canada. Canada didn't have much choice since it was a legal request based on some treaty. So while Huawei's expensive lawyers work to free the Huawei CFO, China suddenly picks three Canadians for extra special attention. The Canadians are dealing with jail while the Huawei CFO is in her Vancouver mansion with a monitored ankle bracelet - at least the Canadian media made it look like that.

That's how it was viewed in Canada.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#90

Post by richbell »

woooooo wrote: post #85
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither she nor the nation of China are party to sanctions on Iran. She's subject to US law, and the consequences thereof. > that's not great moral ground It's a question of law, not morality. The rule of law is applied pretty fairly in the US and backstopped by the democratic process, whereas it's applied arbitrarily by Chinese dictatorial leadership when it suits them. That's where the moral ground lies. What you…

Why is she subject to US export law? Chinese citizen on Canadian soil who was not personally exporting anything at that moment. Do you consider yourself subject to Chinese export law? I know, empire, we can do what we want, but like I said. Shaky moral ground.

> Why is she subject to US export law? Chinese citizen on Canadian soil who was not personally exporting anything at that moment.

Because she is accountable as a C-suite executive of Huawei, and she was traveling in a country that is closely allied with the United States.

It's funny that you're making this argument when the point of TFA is that China punishes and detains people for merely being associated with a company or group they don't like.

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