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If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

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Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#51

Post by kanbara »

moomoo11 wrote: post #32

I’ll be honest. As an American (originally from 3rd world country) I have zero intention of traveling internationally. Why would I? I live in the best country in the world. For tech, startups, lifestyle, food (i can eat any cuisine from around the world and access to amazing restaurants), hiking, etc. The last place I'd visit is some authoritarian place.

this sort of attitude is one of the reasons people look at america with disdain. the rest of the world, yes even china, yes even somalia, have culture, history, and knowledge to offer.

it’s never appropriate to think one cannot learn from others or try new experiences

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#52

Post by zoklet-enjoyer »

jamesaurichs wrote: post #41
nimbius wrote: post #34

Low quality "china scary" article that basically reiterates something that is true in virtually all five eyes and shengen countries. Violate the law and you can be held for criminal prosecution.

[flagged]

People staring at me 24/7 sounds really weird but I dunno about torture

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#53

Post by seanmcdirmid »

owenmarshall wrote: post #16

I’m very curious if exit bans are typically targeted towards Chinese nationals, dual-nationals, or foreigners.

It depends on the context.

First, there has to be some conflict going on, they might want to do some tit for tat. so if for example China has some problem with Canadians considering extradition of Huaweiwei's daughter, they will definitely single out some Canadian business people of European descent (not very common in China) rather than Canadians of Chinese descent (much more common in China). There is always enough to get you for something if they really want to, like taking pictures of a mountain and surprise...it is really a PLA military installation (but not really, it could just be a place where they have a hotel or something). Remember China is a rule by law country, not a rule of law one, so you can't really count on being treated fairly unless they want to treat you fairly.

Given the recent problems, right now probably isn't the best time for Americans (especially Americans of non-Chinese descent), but it probably isn't that bad either (no obvious singular dispute that necessitates tit for tat reaction). I guess I would go right now if I could get my kid's visa situation worked out (so he can go see grandma).

You are also just as likely not to be arrested for being a foreigner when Chinese are processed for similar violations. For example, hitting a roadblock that is targeting college kids who have smoked marijuana, they will drug test all the Chinese kids on the bus and will ignore the foreigners as too much trouble.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#54

Post by dragonwriter »

nimbius wrote: post #49
ProjectArcturis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Legal experts say virtually any party to a civil dispute in China involving a foreign national can ask local police to add their opponent’s name to a national database of exit bans that police check at every airport, railway station and other border crossing... That is certainly not how things are in most Western countries.

Except in Canada where huawei's executive got the same treatment, or the US where the no fly list exists with little recourse.

> the US where the no fly list exists with little recourse.

While I suppose its technically distantly parallel to the description in the article, in that there is nothing stopping a private party from asking the FBI’s Terrorist Screening Center to add someone to thie No Fly List, there’s actually no established process for such a request and no set of criteria that would make it particularly applicable to a foreign national against whom a local has civil litigation pending, so, substantively, the analogy is badly strained, especially since the No Fly List is not a general exit control.

Also, recourse for denied boarding and denied entry (but not denied exit, because the US, again, doesn’t have exit controls) is available through the DHS TRIP process, which is appealable if a satisfactory result is not received to the appropriate US Court of Appeals.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#55

Post by seanmcdirmid »

richbell wrote: post #33
goodbyesf wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spies or people tied to spies. When canada arrested or kidnapped the chinese huawei executive a few years ago on US orders, the chinese government held canadian spies in return. Tit for tat. Of course we whine about it endlessly and push propagnada to make the chinese look like the bad guys.

> the chinese government held canadian spies in return So they claimed; I don't think this was ever substantiated.

It is really easy to break national security laws in China. Just taking a picture at the front of zhongnanhai in Beijing is technically a violation, or a million other places you would never guess were military installations. It isn't like San Diego where even Chinese tourists can take pictures of American military ships in port. (note: the national security laws are considered state secrets under the same national security laws, so even publishing these laws is a violation, so you know...)

But these laws are rarely enforced, except when they need someone for an example.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#56

Post by waithuh »

jamesaurichs wrote: post #41
nimbius wrote: post #34

Low quality "china scary" article that basically reiterates something that is true in virtually all five eyes and shengen countries. Violate the law and you can be held for criminal prosecution.

[flagged]

To be fair, any U.S government agency can very well torture you as well, as they can do an oopsie and send you over to somewhere middle in the woods in Poland.

The term whataboutism is also not exactly stable when it comes to politics because nobody plays fairly.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#59

Post by rgmerk »

moomoo11 wrote: post #32

I’ll be honest. As an American (originally from 3rd world country) I have zero intention of traveling internationally. Why would I? I live in the best country in the world. For tech, startups, lifestyle, food (i can eat any cuisine from around the world and access to amazing restaurants), hiking, etc. The last place I'd visit is some authoritarian place.

If you’re sincere, you’re being myopic.

The USA is a great place, but there are so many cool things to see and experiences to have that you simply can’t without leaving the country.

And, professionally, there’s always new things to learn. Not every good idea in the world originates in Silicon Valley.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#60

Post by foverzar »

LeoNatan25 wrote: post #9

Don't travel to China.

And miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths?

Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else.

Because honestly:

> The typical reasons for the Chinese government imposing an exit ban that prohibits a foreigner from leaving China is for allegedly committing a crime, allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with a Chinese company or individual.

This is something that I would expect visiting literally any country.

It is probably not something that people faring from the western world and traveling over that western world (so no visas, no suspicion, excellent consulate support) are used to, but this is kinda how the rest of the world lives, even when traveling to western countries.

It's kind of ironic how the article also ropes in Russia, given that Russians are regularly arrested by the US (sometimes not even necessarily on the US soil) - over a hundred people currently detained. When normalized by population (roughly 150 mil in Russia, and 300 mil in the US), this is pretty much similar to the number of American citizens detained in China (over 2 hundred people). So what, don't go to the US or countries that extradite there? I don't think so either.

EDIT: added some rough stats

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