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If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

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Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#91

Post by woooooo »

richbell wrote: post #87
woooooo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's flip it and see how different they are. China sanctions France. Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran?

> Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen She was a C-suite executive of Huawei, not some random employee. > Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran? If an American company intentionally evaded sanctions and did something they knew Ch…

I'm surprised! I thought you would be much more sympathetic to the American. Everyone's so outraged at arbitrary detainment of westerners.

I would apparently be more upset than you about it.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#92

Post by ecshafer »

canucker2016 wrote: post #27
ecshafer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think my freedom is at risk when I go there honestly. There are probably people in some fields or businesses that do have some risk. But I think the fears are overblown.

As long as you or any relation/acquaintance/company/nation you belong to do not offend China, you're cool. Case in point: the two Michaels from Canada detained 'suddenly' after a Huawei executive was detained in Canada in relation to a US govt case: https://globalnews.ca/news/8224094/canada-china-two-michaels... Though a third Canadian had his conviction retried to a worse sentence - death.

The US detaining people in foreign countries for breaking us “law” makes me think that China isn’t the country I should be afraid of. Sanctions are already a morally dubious set of actions that mainly harm the poor.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#93

Post by MerelyMortal »

foverzar wrote: post #60
LeoNatan25 wrote: post #9

Don't travel to China.

And miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths? Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else. Because honestly: > The typical reasons for the Chinese government imposing an exit ban that prohibits a foreigner from leaving China is for allegedly committing a crime, allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with…

> allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with a Chinese company or individual.

'Pay my extortion fee, or I'll tell the government that you owe me money or we have a dispute, then you will miss your flight and you'll have to buy new, more expensive plane tickets.'

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#94

Post by foverzar »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #81
foverzar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths? Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else. Because honestly: > The typical reasons for the Chinese government imposing an exit ban that prohibits a foreigner from leaving China is for allegedly committing a crime, allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with…

> given that Russians are regularly arrested by the US I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian. Russians also get arrested in China, it usually involves some alcohol at some nightclub and maybe concerns girls. The Chocolate Bar behind Ritan park in Beijing's Russian district was a pretty intense place. > So what, don't go to the US or countries that extradite the…

> I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian.

It's often spying accusations for individuals or sanctions related for businesspeople, so...

> Russians also get arrested in China

Of course. Everyone gets arrested everywhere from time to time. My point that China isn't in any way unique in this matter.

> In general, prefer rule of law countries and avoid rule by law countries if you are worried about fair treatment.

Not to call out on a bad advice, but as a tourist I personally prefer "no one cares about you once you've passed customs, just don't be evil" countries. I'd rather talk my way out of an awkward situation, than risk getting in a "rule of law" trouble for accidentally making a wrong turn and breaking a vague traffic rule on an empty road.

On the other hand, as a traveller, every new country is a good country.

In principle though, see my comment in the neighboring thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37071541

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#95

Post by seanmcdirmid »

woooooo wrote: post #88
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If China said: all businesses in China must not do business in France, and then some business person working in China for an American company decided the company would send Chinese components to France anyways, they would be thrown in jail fairly quickly. This is actually a pretty common restriction for companies operating in China. There are lots of rules they have to follow, that they wouldn't need to follow if the…

But someone who's just passing through, the founder's daughter btw, and Huawei has no manufacturing in Canada that I'm aware of? She wasn't shipping stuff out of Canada to Iran, the problem is that Huawei generally does business there. It's a "rule by law" situation if they're grabbing her for things her company does outside of US/Canadian borders.

Huawei decided to import HP components from the USA and re-export them to Iran to get around US sanctions. Huawei also has a presence in the USA, but in general the USA subjects any company re-exporting American stuff to sanctioned countries as breaking American law, and actually so does China.

Now...let's say some American executive happened to be in China and China accused this company of re-exporting something made in China to another country that China was sanctioning. Yes, they would go to jail, there wouldn't even be an outcry over it. There are other things the Chinese could get them on, so not even this pretext is needed, but you better believe they would do it.

Now, let's say some Swedish citizen is accused of violating Chinese law but is not in China, rather they happen to be in Thailand. Yes, the Chinese are still going after that person as well, but no, the Thai government isn't involved. They just go and kidnap the guy.

Ok, so now we get to Canada, who has an extradition agreement with the USA. The USA puts in a request for her extradition because they accuse her of violating American law. There is a valid accusation, though it is questionable if she would have been convicted. Canada says: ok, we have to evaluate if this order is correct, so they arrest Huawei daughter, and then it goes to the courts. China tit for tat grabs some random Canadians off the street, throws them in jail for a couple of years (Huawei daughter is in jail for a couple of weeks then at home under house arrest for the rest of the time, but that's canada for you). Eventually, Canadian courts decide on their own that America's request isn't valid and they decide not to extradite Huawei daughter to the USA (the Canadians arrested in China wouldn't have mattered, because the courts are independent and they can't make "deals" with other countries).

China is really just rule by law: they don't like you, you are going to jail. The USA, and Canada, have laws, independent courts that aren't subject to whims of prime minsters or presidents, etc...they even have bail where you can spend 2 years in your Vancouver mansion rather than a Chinese prison while your case works its way through the system.

They are not comparable.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#96

Post by canucker2016 »

woooooo wrote: post #88
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If China said: all businesses in China must not do business in France, and then some business person working in China for an American company decided the company would send Chinese components to France anyways, they would be thrown in jail fairly quickly. This is actually a pretty common restriction for companies operating in China. There are lots of rules they have to follow, that they wouldn't need to follow if the…

But someone who's just passing through, the founder's daughter btw, and Huawei has no manufacturing in Canada that I'm aware of? She wasn't shipping stuff out of Canada to Iran, the problem is that Huawei generally does business there. It's a "rule by law" situation if they're grabbing her for things her company does outside of US/Canadian borders.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/huawei-cfo-wanzhou-meng-admit...

“Her admissions in the statement of facts confirm that, while acting as the Chief Financial Officer for Huawei, Meng made multiple material misrepresentations to a senior executive of a financial institution regarding Huawei’s business operations in Iran in an effort to preserve Huawei’s banking relationship with the financial institution. The truth about Huawei’s business in Iran, which Meng concealed, would have been important to the financial institution’s decision to continue its banking relationship with Huawei. Meng’s admissions confirm the crux of the government’s allegations in the prosecution of this financial fraud — that Meng and her fellow Huawei employees engaged in a concerted effort to deceive global financial institutions, the U.S. government and the public about Huawei’s activities in Iran.”

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#97

Post by foverzar »

MerelyMortal wrote: post #93
foverzar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths? Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else. Because honestly: > The typical reasons for the Chinese government imposing an exit ban that prohibits a foreigner from leaving China is for allegedly committing a crime, allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with…

> allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with a Chinese company or individual. 'Pay my extortion fee, or I'll tell the government that you owe me money or we have a dispute, then you will miss your flight and you'll have to buy new, more expensive plane tickets.'

This kind of scam can be pulled off in any country.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#98

Post by theonething »

waithuh wrote: post #56
jamesaurichs wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

To be fair, any U.S government agency can very well torture you as well, as they can do an oopsie and send you over to somewhere middle in the woods in Poland. The term whataboutism is also not exactly stable when it comes to politics because nobody plays fairly.

I don't have proof, but I'm willing to bet that it happens a lot more in China than here in the US.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#99

Post by MerelyMortal »

moomoo11 wrote: post #32

I’ll be honest. As an American (originally from 3rd world country) I have zero intention of traveling internationally. Why would I? I live in the best country in the world. For tech, startups, lifestyle, food (i can eat any cuisine from around the world and access to amazing restaurants), hiking, etc. The last place I'd visit is some authoritarian place.

American here. America is a very large country. I have traveled to many places across the world, and while there are interesting and beautiful places elsewhere, there are just as many beautiful and interesting places here in the United States. Travelling internationally is overrated. People forget how enormous the U.S. is and how isolated and beautiful many parts of it is.

You're probably getting some downvotes for saying it's the best country, as that is very subjective and depends how you measure. You're also probably getting downvotes because of your dismissive-ness.

Re: If you travel to China, be aware of an exit ban

#100

Post by seanmcdirmid »

foverzar wrote: post #94
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> given that Russians are regularly arrested by the US I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian. Russians also get arrested in China, it usually involves some alcohol at some nightclub and maybe concerns girls. The Chocolate Bar behind Ritan park in Beijing's Russian district was a pretty intense place. > So what, don't go to the US or countries that extradite the…

> I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian. It's often spying accusations for individuals or sanctions related for businesspeople, so... > Russians also get arrested in China Of course. Everyone gets arrested everywhere from time to time. My point that China isn't in any way unique in this matter. > In general, prefer rule of law countries and avoid rule by law co…

People get arrested for lots of things, sometimes it is taking pictures that they shouldn't take, but had no idea that they couldn't take those pictures. In China, you can get arrested for taking pictures of pretty much anywhere, subject to whims of course (they can't put all tourists in prison or they would have no tourist industry).

In America, you can take pictures of anything you want as long as you are allowed to be there. Some Chinese guy could (and often do!) take a picture of an Aircraft Carrier in port in San Diego and not go to jail for spying, while some American guy doing the same thing in Qingdao is in huge trouble if the police decide to bother. This is in a perfectly touristy place, where you could just be taking pictures of scenery or something.

The only issue is when you gain access to somewhere you aren't supposed to be (say a military base) and start taking pictures; e.g. https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdfl/pr/three-chinese-nationals.... In that case, the judge is going to take into account if they knew they were in an naval air station or not (rather than strolling along the road in San Diego).

> Not to call out on a bad advice, but as a tourist I personally prefer "no one cares about you once you've passed customs, just don't be evil" countries. I'd rather talk my way out of an awkward situation, than risk getting in a "rule of law" trouble for accidentally making a wrong turn and breaking a vague traffic rule on an empty road.

At least go to countries where the laws aren't considered state secrets. Because if what they can get you for is a secret, you are screwed (but in general, you are screwed anyways, because laws in those countries are just tools anyways). And yes, don't be an evil jerk and 99.9% of the time nothing is happening to you, but in the USA you usually just need a good lawyer while in China you are at the mercy of whether the local party official wants to make an example of you or not.

Anyways, if you are afraid of rule of law, don't go to Singapore. They will fine you a few thousand dollars for making that wrong turn, or stopping at the wrong time...etc...the exact opposite of China actually.

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