Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#211

Post by eschneider » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:31 PM UTC

fluoridation wrote: post #87

rootusrootus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of a customer, what is the difference between a heated seat that doesn't work because it doesn't exist, and one that is locked out by software? Assuming the customer isn't paying up front for that feature. Some people don't want to pay for heated seats. Turns out the manufacturer found it cheaper to just include the hardware anyway rather than differentiate on the production line. What's the big…

>Some people don't want to pay for heated seats. Turns out the manufacturer found it cheaper to just include the hardware anyway rather than differentiate on the production line. If it's that cheap then it should just always be included, period. Otherwise it's just transparent greed. Why charge your customers extra for something that costs you literally nothing extra? Why not do the same for everything? The radio vol…

It's boggles the mind that a car company would spend millions on styling and then do something like that to completely cheapen the experience. Of course, software companies do that sort of thing all the time. Just...ugh.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#212

Post by no_time » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:31 PM UTC

That's very cool. Especially if this could compromise the desktop version of this tech as well. Extracting my own TPM keys could be useful if MS/GOOG decides to boil the frog even harder.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#213

Post by mrkeen » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

kotaKat wrote: post #48

They haven't managed to "unlock" the features yet. They've got root on the IC which "could" lead to unlocking them.[1] https://www.blackhat.com/us-23/briefings/schedule/index.html...

Something which might work in the future, being announced as something that works now? How appropriate!

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#214

Post by yardie » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

_ea1k wrote: post #187

johnl1479 wrote: post #7

I'm torn. On one hand, I absolutely think that a capability available in the vehicle/device when you purchased it should be available for you to use, and not behind a software lock (heated seats, etc). On the other hand, an "upgrade" or 100% new software delivered via OTA (self driving, etc) seems a little more like it should be a separate thing.

It gets a lot more ambiguous when the features being offered also come with increased risk of warrantly liability. I'm thinking of things like acceleration boost here rather than FSD and other driver assistance features. For FSD, part of the payment is for ongoing maintenance. It is likely that the countermeasure would be subscriptions, and they already seem to be progressing in that direction.

FSD is a little trickier. FSD hardware is installed in your car and is used for ADAS. FSD is completely different firmware and has to be downloaded from Tesla servers which will check to see if you paid for that service.

It might be possible to subscribe to FSD, wait for it to download, then unsubscribe, and hack it to re-enable the firmware. But FSD is still beta and you'd be risking being exposed to get future updates.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#215

Post by spikels » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

redundantly wrote: post #189

oittaa wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75A9g4HsQiU

The video being sped up makes it feel dishonest. Would have been nice to have a regular recording.

Omar post raw versions of all his FSD videos. There’s a link in the YouTube description. Here’s the one for this drive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFYspCLoLTY

Frankly the sped up versions are more useful for understanding the technology because most driving is boring, even for a self-driving system. But it is good to be able to go to the raw version if needed.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#216

Post by ddalex » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

vessenes wrote: post #47

Pretty sophisticated attack vector: low voltage attack on AMD secure execution environment during boot. I wonder how many tries you need to get whatever bits you need in the right place. Also, I imagine you only need to cut 12V wires to do this, but I admire the willingness to get in there direct on these systems. I'd be a little nervous to make those cuts personally. Buried in the article is the claim that this will…

> you could anonymize your location on Tesla's servers

I already anonymise my location on Tesla's servers by simply not owning a Tesla

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#217

Post by Night_Thastus » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:33 PM UTC

DistractionRect wrote: post #186

kramerger wrote: post #145

Wait a minute... heated seats are software locked on Teslas? WTF guys?

I kinda get it. Rather than maintaining a supply of multiple parts which complicates your supply chain and install/repair procedures, Tesla is making cars nearly 100% identical physically and differentiating in software.

The supply and install problem clearly isn't that hard, auto makers have been doing it for many decades at this point.

Plus, it seems backwards from a business standpoint. You always have the cost of installing the hardware, but now you only get a % of users who agree to pay for the additional cost? The only way to "fix" that is to artificially raise the price of the product so effectively everyone is paying, which means now you're double-dipping from the people who do want it.

It's just crap. If I buy a physical device (not renting) then I own it and should be able to use its full capabilities. The only thing that should cost more is anything that has ongoing cost to the manufacturer if I use it.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#218

Post by avrionov » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #193

vorticalbox wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's likely because it's a hardware issue, nothing really for tesla to do.

Apologize for my ignorance, but isn't it up to Tesla to define what hardware they want to integrate? Or is there no design alternative?

What they meant is that it is not possible to fix it without replacing the hardware.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#219

Post by eschneider » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #122

The real question is Tesla Supercharger capability. If you can't plug your car into that network, then you've lost a ton of value. But here's the thing. In order to disable supercharging, Tesla remotes into your vehicle to turn it off. It doesn't happen on the charger side, it happens on the vehicle. So if you have root on your Tesla, you can make sure you can always supercharge, which isn't mentioned anywhere else.

Here's a question for the lawyers out there: if you notify Tesla that they're no longer authorized to access YOUR car, and they remote into it anyways, would that come under Computer Fraud and Abuse?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#220

Post by theluketaylor » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #98

theluketaylor wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t mind hardware shipping locked and being an optional fee to unlock. I have paid for the rear heated seats in my model 3. What I’m vehemently opposed to is ongoing fees for things that don’t have ongoing costs. BMW wants to charge monthly for seat heaters or carplay, but those things are not a service and don’t have ongoing costs for BMW to provide. If anything creating an ongoing software lock creates an avail…

I feel different about extra cores on a CPU than I do about heated seats. The manufacturing price delta between an 8 core CPU and a 16 core, nowadays is functionally meaningless. The manufacturing cost between a car with heated seats and without headset seats is functioningaflly meaningful. The way I see it, for things like heated seats or CarPlay, I'm already paying for the base hardware cost (plus some margin) as p…

> The manufacturing cost between a car with heated seats and without headset seats is functioningaflly meaningful

I don't believe that is the case. BMW determined it was more expensive to have the supply chain, inventory, and manufacturing management to build both heated and non-heated versions of their seats. Rather than just make heated seats a standard feature they saw an opportunity to maintain and even expand their highest margin revenue stream: options.