Ah yes, "full" self driving
It's getting pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75A9g4HsQiU
Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
81–90 of 773 posts
Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
#82Pretty sophisticated attack vector: low voltage attack on AMD secure execution environment during boot. I wonder how many tries you need to get whatever bits you need in the right place. Also, I imagine you only need to cut 12V wires to do this, but I admire the willingness to get in there direct on these systems. I'd be a little nervous to make those cuts personally. Buried in the article is the claim that this will…
>that's got to be really bad news for someone in vehicle security at Tesla.
It says in the article: "Generally, these exploits are shared with Tesla, and it helps the automaker secure its systems."
So it's only a matter of time till Tesla patches it.
Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does enabling FSD come with any liability / terms of service? If it is backdoor enabled and the vehicle crashes, what is Tesla's liability? If the OTA patches to the system are needed and the car is running the base, unupdated (buggy) build, what is Tesla's liability? Alternatively, if a vehicle is running software that hasn't gone through Tesla's subscription how much of the liability for any software problems will…
If something is opened or modified without manufacturer consent, there is no question of liability because there is none.
Except history hasn't really played out that way. Less serious but Grand Theft Auto had a sex game added to one of their titles that wasn't supposed to be accessible by gamers. People figured out how to unlock it using a modified save file. This ended up in all sorts of legal liability to the company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Coffee_(minigame)
Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm somewhat torn too. IBM and I'm sure others have shipped enterprise hardware for years that was partially locked. You might get a machine with 16 cpus but you only paid for 8, for example, but you could license the rest as you grew. It seems a little similar and it was in no way underhanded, everyone knew what the deal was. However I'll echo what another poster said. I say Tesla should be free to sell whatever the…
I'm of the opinion that these two things aren't comparable. True, IBM and others have locked extra capability through software... but they were only ever selling/renting to the corporate world, which presumably had enough in-house legal expertise to not be completely dicked over. To take that business practice, and then try to foist it on consumers who don't have $500/hour lawyers on retainer looking out for them is…
We’re not talking about enterprise software here. I think people can understand the concept of paying for a seat heater and the like without a team of lawyers.
Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
In reality, you're still paying for the hardware. Don't think for a second that these 'optional' features don't figure into the price. Sure, maybe they have a lower markup if you don't buy the license up front, but you still paid for it. These types of gimmicks are free money for the company pulling them.
Because of the way production lines work it can actually be cheaper to include it on every seat and unlock it with software.
Cheaper to manufacture, yes, but the cost of the hardware is still included in what you pay for the software-locked car. You've paid for the hardware and you own it, even if it's software-locked. At that point, you're just being asked to fork over $1k or whatever the additional charge is for what essentially amounts to an "on/off" switch.
Edit: Hell, to make it sound even more stupid, you're being asked to fork over $1k or whatever the additional charge is in order to change a bit from 0 to 1.
Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm somewhat torn too. IBM and I'm sure others have shipped enterprise hardware for years that was partially locked. You might get a machine with 16 cpus but you only paid for 8, for example, but you could license the rest as you grew. It seems a little similar and it was in no way underhanded, everyone knew what the deal was. However I'll echo what another poster said. I say Tesla should be free to sell whatever the…
I don’t mind hardware shipping locked and being an optional fee to unlock. I have paid for the rear heated seats in my model 3. What I’m vehemently opposed to is ongoing fees for things that don’t have ongoing costs. BMW wants to charge monthly for seat heaters or carplay, but those things are not a service and don’t have ongoing costs for BMW to provide. If anything creating an ongoing software lock creates an avail…
I would also add that those sorts of subscriptions shouldn't have a lock-in period, at least not more than a month.
And auto-renew should require explicit opt-in. For most subscriptions I have, automatic renewal is desirable, but invariably I forget to cancel trials or one month subs of things I just wanted to test.
Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
#87I'm torn. On one hand, I absolutely think that a capability available in the vehicle/device when you purchased it should be available for you to use, and not behind a software lock (heated seats, etc). On the other hand, an "upgrade" or 100% new software delivered via OTA (self driving, etc) seems a little more like it should be a separate thing.
From the perspective of a customer, what is the difference between a heated seat that doesn't work because it doesn't exist, and one that is locked out by software? Assuming the customer isn't paying up front for that feature. Some people don't want to pay for heated seats. Turns out the manufacturer found it cheaper to just include the hardware anyway rather than differentiate on the production line. What's the big…
>Some people don't want to pay for heated seats. Turns out the manufacturer found it cheaper to just include the hardware anyway rather than differentiate on the production line.
If it's that cheap then it should just always be included, period. Otherwise it's just transparent greed. Why charge your customers extra for something that costs you literally nothing extra? Why not do the same for everything? The radio volume knob is software-locked and it's either at 100% or off, unless you pay extra to unlock it. The entertainment system will play ads continuously while the car is running unless you pay extra for the no-ads version. When you unlock the doors they will stay locked for five more minutes unless you pay extra for the Instant Unlock feature.
Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
#88Let's start calling them what they are: Freedom fighters. "Hacking" carries quite a lot of negative connotations in most realms. These are people making sure you are able to make full use of your own stuff . There shouldn't be anything contentious about that.
"Freedom fighters" has a lot of negative connotations in many realms as well. It evokes images of rebels using violence to push some political agenda. Sometimes for worthy causes, sometimes less so. No, we're keeping the word "hacker".
While I agree with that image problem (I couldn't come up with any that didn't have it, and at least this one is descriptive)... I feel pretty confident claiming that "hackers" carries clearer and more consistent negative connotations to the general public (definitely not HN though).
Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm somewhat torn too. IBM and I'm sure others have shipped enterprise hardware for years that was partially locked. You might get a machine with 16 cpus but you only paid for 8, for example, but you could license the rest as you grew. It seems a little similar and it was in no way underhanded, everyone knew what the deal was. However I'll echo what another poster said. I say Tesla should be free to sell whatever the…
I don’t mind hardware shipping locked and being an optional fee to unlock. I have paid for the rear heated seats in my model 3. What I’m vehemently opposed to is ongoing fees for things that don’t have ongoing costs. BMW wants to charge monthly for seat heaters or carplay, but those things are not a service and don’t have ongoing costs for BMW to provide. If anything creating an ongoing software lock creates an avail…
> What I’m vehemently opposed to is ongoing fees for things that don’t have ongoing costs.
IMO, the real issue is the price. There is pretty broad and well established equivalency between OPex and CAPex. The problem is that car companies are trying to charge OPex as if there was a 1 year depreciation schedule, when cars typically last for decades.
I think that if BMW charged 1/240th[1] the cost to buy the option in order to rent it per month, very few people would complain. Especially if that price were locked in for the life of the car.
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1. 20 * 12 = 240
Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
The exact same way you should be able to install your own software on your iPhone
your phone isn't a 3500 lb metal box of death on public roads with other cars, cyclists, and pedestrians
We already have a system in place for this: civil liability and criminal culpability. If you hack your car negligently, you can be sued for negligence or charged with manslaughter.