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1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

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Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#101

Post by darkclouds »

mopenstein wrote: post #84
darkclouds wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, but its never really taught how much more complicated the situation is that leads to the start of a war. At best it documents events, but history at least in my case never went into the politics. History was more a case of just remembering facts, but teaching might have changed a bit since my time. One example of some of the stuff I heard the imperialist forces were up to in Japan, again I dont know how much…

You get the gist of things in school and can later pursue further education either through more institutional learning or independently seeking out information on you're own. Which you've seemingly have done. Schools couldn't possibly teach the entirety of human history from every perspective.

> Schools couldn't possibly teach the entirety of human history from every perspective.

Schools could at least start by explaining there is always two sides to every argument though, instead of being forced stealth propaganda down the throats of impressionable minds.

Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#102

Post by boomboomsubban »

adastra22 wrote: post #85
cubefox wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the American views about specifically Hiroshima and Nagasaki seem different from most other countries, or at least from Japan. Outside the US it is quite common to view the bombings as war crimes, while this is uncommon in the US. This probably influenced how "Oppenheimer" handled the matter. (A comparison would perhaps be the difference between a Russian and a Polish film about the Sowjet invasion of Poland…

Maybe because a lot of our grandfathers lived through the war because they didn’t have to invade the home islands of Japan. So the “lives saved” argument is a little more visceral when I wouldn’t even exist today if it weren’t for the atom bomb.

I detest how the event is always portrayed as "either nuke two cities, or launch a complete invasion of Japan." At no point are other options considers, such as nuking another target or a start of peace talks rather than only an acceptance of a vague "unconditional surrender."

Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#103

Post by scrollaway »

mcpackieh wrote: post #57
Knee_Pain wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Post Traumatic STRESS Disorder isn't? You got an atomic bomb dropped on you, experienced a literal apocalyptic sun consuming everything you loved first hand and all you (impersonal) can come up with is "stress"? If you want to stay coherent then we should have made up a term specifically to tackle the world-ending experiences these people lived through.

Having known a few people with (war-induced) PTSD, I think stress disorder is a good description of their outward symptoms. However I think your perspective is valid and can see why you think this sounds diminishing.

It’s not “stress disorder”, it’s “disorder”. As in: “(Post-(traumatic stress)) Disorder”. Disorder that follows traumatic stress.

Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#104

Post by localplume »

cubefox wrote: post #49

According to a 2015 survey[1], 56% of US Americans say the bombings were justified, while 34% say they were not. This relatively positive (or non-negative) assessment of the A-bombs might have influenced their portrayal in "Oppenheimer", an American production. The Japanese re-screening of "Hiroshima" might be aimed at countering their depiction in "Oppenheimer". [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/08/04…

[dead]

Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#105

Post by jnaina »

cubefox wrote: post #69
nerdponx wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are often taught that the bombings resulted in less loss of life than a conventional land invasion of the home islands. So it's not quite a matter of "A-bomb good". Plenty of Americans alive today lived through the Cold War too, and spent years or decades in low-level fear of nuclear war. It's not quite as simple as "nukes good therefore no criticism of nukes in movie". Part of the interest in things like t…

Yes, but the American views about specifically Hiroshima and Nagasaki seem different from most other countries, or at least from Japan. Outside the US it is quite common to view the bombings as war crimes, while this is uncommon in the US. This probably influenced how "Oppenheimer" handled the matter. (A comparison would perhaps be the difference between a Russian and a Polish film about the Sowjet invasion of Poland…

Folks from South East Asian countries (I'm from Singapore) that were occupied by the Japanese army and witnessed extreme brutality, cruelty and inhumane atrocities generally rejoiced when the bombs were detonated on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Most folks that lived through that period actually wished for the US to also bomb Tokyo to annihilate the Japanese Imperial family, as they rightfully or wrongly attributed them to Japan's slide to a brutal colonizer nation.

Some examples of Japanese war crimes:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/128323588

Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#106

Post by Spooky23 »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #102
adastra22 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because a lot of our grandfathers lived through the war because they didn’t have to invade the home islands of Japan. So the “lives saved” argument is a little more visceral when I wouldn’t even exist today if it weren’t for the atom bomb.

I detest how the event is always portrayed as "either nuke two cities, or launch a complete invasion of Japan." At no point are other options considers, such as nuking another target or a start of peace talks rather than only an acceptance of a vague "unconditional surrender."

It’s a complex event. Those were the high level options, which remove the political factors.

In the context of being in the middle of bombing campaigns of cities, the moral turpitude of mass killing of people was long pushed aside. Total war meant everyone was part of the war effort.

So you’re left with a couple of factors. The prospect of invasion, the likelihood of getting a peaceful settlement, and the prospect of Soviet involvement.

Bombing and starvation wasn’t working fast enough to cause the intransigent military junta to bend. I think the idea was that the shock of atomic bombing would empower the collapse of the government, and cow the Soviets.

At the end, they came to the table, and the US accepted a conditional surrender.

Personally, I think if folks are going to be intellectually honest about the atomic bombings, you have to have the same position and advocacy for scaled destruction of cities in general. The firestorms, created by napalm and phosphorus and inflicted on Tokyo, Dresden and Hamburg among others were no less a horror. Decrying the tool allows people to explain away from the context. A more efficient killing machine doesn’t make the killing any more or less righteous. I think the Japanese perspective of this has been around embracing the pursuit of peace. A worthy goal that we’ve abandoned.

Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#107

Post by makeitdouble »

lazide wrote: post #96
cubefox wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the American views about specifically Hiroshima and Nagasaki seem different from most other countries, or at least from Japan. Outside the US it is quite common to view the bombings as war crimes, while this is uncommon in the US. This probably influenced how "Oppenheimer" handled the matter. (A comparison would perhaps be the difference between a Russian and a Polish film about the Sowjet invasion of Poland…

Near as I can tell, the nukes were far less of a war crime than the fire bombings (which killed far more). And the fire bombings get far less press. Nukes are far more sensational and abstract I guess, compared to the terrible reality of burning hundreds of thousands alive more slowly in their own homes. Moral of the story I guess - don’t start shit.

> Moral of the story I guess - don’t start shit.

The real moral people are rightly taking away from it is "win your wars".

And I'd assume Chinese people get to look at it from the same lens: if shit ever hits the fan, they better win whatever the price is, nothing else will even remotely matter.

Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#108

Post by [deleted] »

cameldrv wrote: post #99

Frankly, for all of the hand wringing over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it pales in comparison to Japanese atrocities in China and many other places. In stark contrast to Germany where every school kid learns about the millions killed in the Holocaust, the rape of Nanking and many, many more atrocities by Imperial Japan are routinely denied altogether in Japan. When it comes to the U.S., I can say that I certainly learned…

[deleted]

Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#109

Post by [deleted] »

Vecr wrote: post #68
gre wrote: post #25

"The bomb didnt beat Japan, Stalin did" https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-jap...

I think using the bombs with the information the US had at the time was justified. From the information the US had, Japan had a quite credible claim that they would "never" surrender unconditionally, though lots of Japanese people and military units would surrender even if Japan itself officially did not, making it not literally "never". With nuclear bombs the US could have kept hitting them with increasing levels of…

[deleted]

Re: 1953 'Phantom' A-bomb film 'Hiroshima,' with 88,000 extras, screening in Tokyo

#110

Post by lazide »

makeitdouble wrote: post #107
lazide wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Near as I can tell, the nukes were far less of a war crime than the fire bombings (which killed far more). And the fire bombings get far less press. Nukes are far more sensational and abstract I guess, compared to the terrible reality of burning hundreds of thousands alive more slowly in their own homes. Moral of the story I guess - don’t start shit.

> Moral of the story I guess - don’t start shit. The real moral people are rightly taking away from it is "win your wars". And I'd assume Chinese people get to look at it from the same lens: if shit ever hits the fan, they better win whatever the price is, nothing else will even remotely matter.

True I guess. If Japan had won, it wouldn't have mattered if they started it or not, they still wouldn't have been nuked ("ethical win"? except for all the really nasty shit they were doing to everyone) and we certainly wouldn't be having any ethical hand wringing about what happened during the war.

They still suppress most of it!

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