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Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#261

Post by ryandrake »

lazide wrote: post #104
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Maybe they catch you at an awesome time, maybe they don't and they leave- it's a pop-in after all. Keep expectations low. At least you saw them.

Meanwhile in the real world, most folks seem to have a panic attack if anyone knocks on their door. Or they have to make a phone call.

Ughh..this is not an exaggeration. I remember recently when Amazon delivered a package to my house meant for a neighbor down the street. I had time so I walked over and knocked on the door. After about a minute I saw a young lady barely pulling the window blinds apart to peek out. When she saw there was still someone there (an out of shape nerd who looks like a Best Buy worker—the opposite of intimidating) just holding a package, she let out a shriek from the depths of damnation, and basically stood there screaming until I set the package down and walked away. You could hear it from the sidewalk. People have gone la la.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#262

Post by itronitron »

twh270 wrote: post #123
nonethewiser wrote: post #64

> Moreover, the 2019 Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System survey revealed that during the previous year 18.8% of US high school students seriously considered attempting suicide, 15.7% made a suicide plan, 8.9% attempted suicide one or more times, and 2.5% made a suicide attempt requiring medical treatment. Wait a minute, what? Nearly 1 in 10 attempted suicide? So in a middle school of say 400 kids a kid would know…

Apparently it's even worse (slightly, but still...) in 2021 according to https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/su/su7201a6.htm . This is horrifying. These kids are going to become adults who will, to some extent, struggle to have successful, satisfying and rewarding lives.

Hopefully they won't get hooked on opiates like so many adults in the free-ranging generation before them.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#264

Post by jackcosgrove »

ccleve wrote: post #19
atonse wrote: post #2

We have really made it a point to have our kid play freely as much as possible and minimize scheduled activities (piano lessons etc.) the problem is that most of his friends are in a million classes so even if he’s free, they often aren’t. That’s been the big challenge. So then there are these magical days where they all don’t have any activities and those invariably happen to be the days ALL kids look forward to. Cu…

I came here to post exactly this. It is appalling that we live in a neighborhood where everyone can walk, there are plenty of kids that my son knows within a mile, he's 14 and more than old enough to be out on his own, but every one of his friends is in a math class, or French school, or out of town on vacation, constantly. He goes to the park and there is no one there. So he stays home and watches anime. The only wa…

I used to think parents who overscheduled their kids were reacting to incentives put in place by college admissions offices and secondary selective admissions schools, and ultimately employers who demand elite credentials.

But as I've studied this issue and experienced life, it seems to be the case that credentials are in reality overrated compared to competence and experience. The vast majority of colleges will admit anyone, and the vast majority of employers requiring a degree just ask that you have a degree of any kind.

So now I think parents should just chill, not because it's the altruistic strategy in game theory, but because that's how the actual labor market works. Parents are killing themselves and their kids for no reason.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#265

Post by duckmysick »

mrguyorama wrote: post #80
Waterluvian wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I explain this is, "my job is not to protect my kids from harm, it's to protect them from irreparable harm." I've had this instinct whenever my kids are on the jungle gym to say, "slow down!" "That's too high!" etc. but I usually catch myself and think, "if they fall is it a cry or a hospital visit?"

If you don't allow your kids to fuck up, they will never build healthy behaviors around fucking up. It's very helpful for kids to give them safe chances to fuck up.

I've been wondering: how do we teach kids about addiction (substances, gambling, phone/internet) and its consequences?

Theoretical explanation is not effective. Letting them experience it first hand might be too destructive, because of the nature of the addiction.

Can any parent chime in what worked and what didn't?

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#266

Post by itronitron »

janalsncm wrote: post #213

The argument in TFA makes sense at a conceptual level. Kids that aren’t allowed to play will be a neurotic mess. But I hesitate to write off teen mental health as just a result of over parenting or social media. Those are probably contributing factors, how much is not clear to me. Another contributing factor is the economic knife hanging over everyone’s head. It’s not enough to just finish high school like it was in…

You could also make the argument that teens only seem to be having a mental health crisis because adults are spending more time listening to them.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#267

Post by ryandrake »

SomewhatLikely wrote: post #246
watwut wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The busy sidewalk thing is about innocent passersbys not having to deal with rowdy kids bumping into them or otherwise bothering them. And actually, kids that are told to watch it actually overall do take more care about that sort of stuff then if parents just let them do whatever.

My young kids would be totally unaware if they were bumping into others, or causing them to stop abruptly, or otherwise interfering with others. Of course if those strangers yelled at them or provided some less harsh form of feedback it might register with them, but I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having.

> I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having.

People are terrified of saying anything because of the likely reaction of the kids' parents. The "it takes a village" mindset is gone. If someone's kid runs into you and you so much as say "excuse me" to them, you risk the parents getting in your face, holding up their cellphone camera, yelling "You don't talk to my kids. Go mind your damn business, Karen!" Not worth it--so bad behavior in public goes uncorrected.

Even when kids aren't involved, people's reaction more and more to public criticism/correction is to get belligerent and tell you to mind your business.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#268

Post by scruple »

uoaei wrote: post #119
mrguyorama wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't allow your kids to fuck up, they will never build healthy behaviors around fucking up. It's very helpful for kids to give them safe chances to fuck up.

Witnessed this kind of thing today. Doting father of three boys on vacation. They're all ditzing around on busy sidewalks and the father barks "Control yourselves!" It occurred to me at that moment that this kind of hovering and scolding teaches children to externalize the responsibility of understanding their environment and their place within it . They will literally never learn the lessons this father wants to imp…

I'll offer a perspective. I'm a father of 3 young kids (4 year old twins, 20 month old). I often find myself in situations where I also need my children to stop whatever they're currently doing and pay attention to me.

You mention this happened on a sidewalk. Cars drive next to sidewalks. The American culture of cars is the number one cause of anxiety in my life as a parent to young children. I do not want to feel this anxiety, I do not like how it makes me react towards my children, who just want to play and have fun and explore the world and try to understand it. But cars exist. And today they are a much bigger problem than they were when I was their age, for a whole variety of reasons that are very well understood and articulated by people far more intelligent and capable than I am. And my children are, practically every single day, within 4-6 feet of cars that are a) much larger than they have any right to be, and b) driving much faster than they have any reason to, to the point that if they are careless about where they are, or what they are doing, they run a very serious risk of being killed.

That is why I sometimes respond to my children the way that I do, in line with what you've observed here. I don't like it, either, but it is what it is.

Now, I go out of my way to get my kids into big, wide, safe open spaces on a daily basis, and I will deliberately ignore them (within reason -- I keep tabs on where they are, etc.) so that they can go off and find interesting ways to play, hurt themselves, whatever. But I still have to engage with the automobile problem multiple times almost every single day of our lives.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#269

Post by OkayPhysicist »

jstarfish wrote: post #102
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man do I ever lament the decline of 'couch co-op' games. Even to this day it's so nice to be able to go over to a friends house, crack open a beer and play together.

I've had a hell of a time finding good co-op games over the years too. Streets of Rogue was really fun for couch co-op, especially given the comical consequences of accidental explosions or poisoning air ducts with the wrong chemical. There's a character for every playstyle too.

Sequel is coming out "soon". Definitely my most anticipated upcoming release.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#270

Post by lossolo »

mantas wrote: post #70
bowsamic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Disadvantaged in what sense? It’s likely those kids won’t even go for the same grind as „managed“ kids.

Kids that have more math lessons, in most cases, will be better at math than the ones that don't. There are limited amount of jobs, students per class in college etc so they compete with each other. If you are living in the same system as most people in this thread, which is capitalism, then to live a somewhat problem-free life with financial security, you need to be either very lucky or participate in the rat race.
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