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Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#101

Post by adamredwoods »

jstarfish wrote: post #93
adamredwoods wrote: post #36

Before everyone begins chastising parents: >> He notes that this is a correlation, not proof of causation, although experiments with animals support the claim that play deprivation causes anxiety and poor social development. I also wonder if "playing" in Minecraft, or Roblox supports this definition of play. Or even RPGs like DnD. It's interactive, and allows children to experiment. It's not a physical world, but I d…

> I also wonder if "playing" in Minecraft, or Roblox supports this definition of play. Or even RPGs like DnD. It's interactive, and allows children to experiment. It's not a physical world, but I don't know if these parameters were explored. I don't think so, but that's my opinion. These virtual worlds have entirely different sets of rules that do not reflect those of reality or social norms. Kids do go through the s…

>> but they get away with it without consequence because it's all virtual.

I'm not sure. From my limited observations of my N=1, and even from observing some Minecraft Youtube channels, there are definitely rules and consequences. But these are tested, changed, negotiated when new members (usually classmates) are brought in.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#102

Post by jstarfish »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #60
j-bos wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Games alone or online feel very different from games played together in the same room. Even if they're the game.

Man do I ever lament the decline of 'couch co-op' games. Even to this day it's so nice to be able to go over to a friends house, crack open a beer and play together.

I've had a hell of a time finding good co-op games over the years too.

Streets of Rogue was really fun for couch co-op, especially given the comical consequences of accidental explosions or poisoning air ducts with the wrong chemical. There's a character for every playstyle too.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#103

Post by mrguyorama »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #60
j-bos wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Games alone or online feel very different from games played together in the same room. Even if they're the game.

Man do I ever lament the decline of 'couch co-op' games. Even to this day it's so nice to be able to go over to a friends house, crack open a beer and play together.

Yeah but then how do you get the other kid to pay for a new console and $80 video game when they can just play at their neighbors house?

Who could have ever foreseen the rampant hollowing out of the holistic life in the service of making a few people richer....

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#104

Post by lazide »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #35
xwdv wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pop in? Where a friend just shows up unannounced with a knock at your door and a tip of the hat and says they were just in the neighborhood and felt like they should drop and has a seat on your couch?

Sure. Maybe they catch you at an awesome time, maybe they don't and they leave- it's a pop-in after all. Keep expectations low. At least you saw them.

Meanwhile in the real world, most folks seem to have a panic attack if anyone knocks on their door. Or they have to make a phone call.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#105

Post by kajaktum »

lolinder wrote: post #44
Waterluvian wrote: post #9

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing), "they're not playing. 'Play' is a misleading term. They're testing the world. They're learning how things work. How gravity works. How friction holds lego together. How actions cause reactions. How friends and strangers behave when you do things. How to use language with make believe. How t…

I wholeheartedly agree based on my own kids, but want to add a caution lest someone misunderstand: this testing, learning, and growing is of a kind that can only be done without adult supervision. It's not something that you can give them with a private lesson. It's not something that can be taught in a classroom. It's not something that can happen at all without adults letting the kids figure it out on their own by…

Whenever this kind of opinion props up I wonder how far would you let your child to "fail"? Clearly we need our children to stumble and fail in a low-stake environment before they actually experience them later on in life. This naturally involves taking some risk. I remember being able to walk freely around the village pretty much without any supervision, I did get hurt a lot either from running into walls or getting scratches from sword play. The problem I see is that modern people have absolutely zero tolerance for "failure" in this regard. Clearly I could have been kidnapped, fallen into the river, fall from a tall tree, got run over by the cows or whatever. Let's face it, this comes with risk. But modern society can't seem to tolerate even a single dead children. Is that for the better? Maybe? But I think trying this has a long term cost. Trying to min/max risk taking and maintaining absolutely zero children suffer is just not going to work. We'll probably lose on both ends.

Note: I have no children nor do I plan to. Exactly because I have no idea how to deal with them nor do I want them to suffer being with me lol

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#106

Post by stainablesteel »

yes, and i'd love to put this through the frame of generational differences, which play a significant part, but we've honestly made a work/school/eat/fuck off culture that just doesn't help anyone raise kids

i mean, its even gotten to the point where no one is having them. other countries around the world apply all the golden rules of economics to become wealthy and successful, but it fails in 2 main areas: education/upbringing, and maintaining a stable birthrate/population

we're eating ourselves alive through a more insidious version of the soviet-era snitching system while proclaiming that cannibalism is immoral

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#107

Post by anigbrowl »

nonethewiser wrote: post #68
Waterluvian wrote: post #9

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing), "they're not playing. 'Play' is a misleading term. They're testing the world. They're learning how things work. How gravity works. How friction holds lego together. How actions cause reactions. How friends and strangers behave when you do things. How to use language with make believe. How t…

Very true with rough and tumble play as well. Which i imagine is virtually non-existant for kids raised only by single mothers. And is extremely important for adolescent boy.s Basically it teaches limits - what hurts and what causes pain to others. And overall leads to much healthier social development. Jordan Peterson talks a lot about this https://youtu.be/Ay1KVzVXbjc

Most people do that with peers, not parents.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#108

Post by hattmall »

ccleve wrote: post #19
atonse wrote: post #2

We have really made it a point to have our kid play freely as much as possible and minimize scheduled activities (piano lessons etc.) the problem is that most of his friends are in a million classes so even if he’s free, they often aren’t. That’s been the big challenge. So then there are these magical days where they all don’t have any activities and those invariably happen to be the days ALL kids look forward to. Cu…

I came here to post exactly this. It is appalling that we live in a neighborhood where everyone can walk, there are plenty of kids that my son knows within a mile, he's 14 and more than old enough to be out on his own, but every one of his friends is in a math class, or French school, or out of town on vacation, constantly. He goes to the park and there is no one there. So he stays home and watches anime. The only wa…

Blaming other parents is great and probably correct, but putting blame on things outside of your control is a cop out.

Why don't you move to an area that's not like that, or you go an play with your kid at the park until other kids show up.

or build an app that makes the makes scheduling the play time very seamless.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#109

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

ccleve wrote: post #19
atonse wrote: post #2

We have really made it a point to have our kid play freely as much as possible and minimize scheduled activities (piano lessons etc.) the problem is that most of his friends are in a million classes so even if he’s free, they often aren’t. That’s been the big challenge. So then there are these magical days where they all don’t have any activities and those invariably happen to be the days ALL kids look forward to. Cu…

I came here to post exactly this. It is appalling that we live in a neighborhood where everyone can walk, there are plenty of kids that my son knows within a mile, he's 14 and more than old enough to be out on his own, but every one of his friends is in a math class, or French school, or out of town on vacation, constantly. He goes to the park and there is no one there. So he stays home and watches anime. The only wa…

I met some of my current friends not from school, but from seeing them at the park or in the neighborhood while playing, walking, or biking around.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#110

Post by nathanfig »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #37

Ahhhh. So it's not social media? That said, social media aside, I wouldn't want to be a teen today. Too much fear. Too much gloom & doom. Too much adults preaching "Don't do Y and/or Z (and not offering "do this instead" alternatives). And parents are looked down upon for not overseeing their kid's every move. So yeah, the parents live in fear as well. This level of fear is not healthy. We've removed agency and repla…

One major cause would not subtract another
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