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Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#511

Post by distant_hat »

galangalalgol wrote: post #18
furyg3 wrote: post #6

Since cars have integrated phone-home diagnostic software, why would the government even allow automakers to advertise 'estimated' ranges for specific car models and not simply show actual averages?

I had an uber driver that said his 3 had less than half the range when temperatures got over 100F (38C). I imagine that is just the increased load from the cooling system. My Y sounds like a combustion car the ac runs so loud the past couple months. I leave the display on battery percentage because the range counts down very quickly in this heat. But it doesn't when it is nice out. Cold decreases the range because th…

Everything coming out of the battery is a huge thing. In cold temperatures, the heating is just waste heat from the ICE. In EVs, you are using the battery to heat the interior and the battery performance is itself low from the cold, so you get a double whammy.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#512

Post by ineedasername »

iamleppert wrote: post #216
dietsche wrote: post #160

As a Tesla owner, I think the source of the confusion is the EPA range displayed in the HUD on the Tesla. We toggled ours to show the battery percentage, which is much more useful to us. We've never owned a gas vehicle that met it's EPA range and the Tesla is no different. No one takes EPA MPG * GALLONS of gas and expects it to be a real life estimate of range. Wind resistance increases EXPONENTIALLY with speed. Driv…

I drove a Tesla for over a month and it was a relief to go back to my Honda Civic. The range (both miles and %) was wildly inaccurate. If I had to drive anywhere that wasn’t a few miles within the city, I was under constant anxiety. No thank you. It’s a wonder to me that anyone would ever trust anything Elon Musk ever says about anything. He’s a proven liar and creates an openly hostile, negative culture wherever he…

I can’t credit myself with the observation, it was someone else on HN, but it ran something like this:

For years Tesla made cars that were disproportionately appealing to people with concerns about the environment, a population that skews liberal/progressive. Those on the other side of the political world view might like the cars too- especially technophiles— but there certainly a large contingent that are skeptical to anything with a primary appeal of being “environmentally friendly”. Then comes the current culture-war driven political ecosystem, and all musk has to do is tweet some controversial things that might resonate with some contingents on the political right and all of a sudden those individuals may feel more comfortable buying cars from a guy who speaks their language.

I certainly don’t know if that was Musk’s deliberate strategy though, but it wouldn’t shock me if his actions in that way are partly “him” and partly him leaning into a role of social prominence that resonates with a consumer population previously less likely to buy his cars.

It would be interesting if I could fine surveys of automobile brand customer bases broken down by political affiliation, and if it’s shifted Tesla’s at all in recent years.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#513

Post by 01100011 »

malwrar wrote: post #158
jvanderbot wrote: post #8

I have a model Y. I hate almost everything about it. But most germane, The "Battery meter" at the top of the display is total bunk. That's got to be "rosy" numbers. It'll display a the battery in miles, but it's at least 25% inflated. However if you punch in a destination, you'll get exact numbers, and those are insanely reliable. It claims (and I don't believe any claims coming from tesla) that it'll factor wind, el…

I actually got stranded once for some hours because of the mileage indicator! Was driving back from a campsite that I turned out to not have charging compatibility with, but thought I had plenty of margin to get to the nearest charger. As I drove through the mountains however, I began noticing that a.) my battery was depleting much faster than expected and b.) I wasn’t seeing any houses and very few motorists. I watc…

FWIW, I was stranded due to a bug in the fuel level indicator and mileage remaining estimate on my 2017 Subaru Outback. Subaru knows about the issue but you have to bring it to their attention if you want a fix. Not giving Tesla a pass here, just mentioning that it's not unique to them.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#514

Post by ak217 »

ke88y wrote: post #32
TheAlchemist wrote: post #5

That's a pretty damning article and it looks like there are more and more of those coming. Tesla still somehow benefits from its innovators / clean company reputation, but at this pace it won't be long before agencies start to act on what's become much more than just 'optimistic marketing'.

I think that reputation already died in the last 2-3 years. It's now pretty common in my circle to hear people say they'll pay a premium to not own a Tesla. Primarily because of lots of bad experiences with build quality/repairs, but also because there are now lots of high quality alternatives. Namely Rivian and Lucid, but also the legacy automakers (two friends bought mach-es recently and there's a smattering of F-1…

I don't know much about Lucid, but Rivian in its current form is not sustainable. Their cars are incredibly overweight and overengineered, their COGS/BOM is out of control, and with the end of ZIRP I'm not sure they have the time and financing to fix these problems at the burn rate they are at. Don't get me started on their "environmentalist adventure vehicle" marketing that's putting 7000-pound cars on mountain trails.

I'm a lot more excited about Hyundai/Kia and Ford.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#515

Post by dinom »

Reubachi wrote: post #449
reaperman wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd need to do some quick math to double-check but very rough ballpark estimates still make me think Teslas can be pushed by a single person. After all, a single strongman can pull a passenger airliner, and any car is nearly impossible to push uphill -- you have to really get some momentum built up first to let them coast up driveways/etc.

It's not about weight or incline, it's the mechanical gearing in the "transmission" that can't turn the wheels without 100 percent power from the engine. You'll be able to push it and think it's really heavy, but it's just the transmission fighting you. standards and automatic trans have neutral that disconnects driveshaft from engine, removing any resistance from the engaged gear. Most EVs either don't have neutral…

> Most EVs either don't have neutral or a poor implementation of it,

I'm sorry, do you mean that neutral and "car wash/freeroll mode" are not 100% equivalent?

This really confounds me... if my car has a problem while driving down the road, I'd really like to have a chance of pushing it onto the shoulder if necessary.

A car that you can't do this with sounds very poorly designed to me.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#516

Post by steveBK123 »

stetrain wrote: post #376
steveBK123 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably showing range in 3 different places that don't really agree is bad right? We are HN tech crowd here so its all fun & games hobbyist stuff. But normies do not want to get into these types of inane subtleties. Arguably the front & center, always-there range display should be the most accurate, not the least accurate.

Most accurate by what standard? Range depends on a bunch of factors. The range you got going to the store yesterday is not the range you will get driving to your friend’s house tomorrow. The car doesn’t know where you are going, whether it is city or highway driving, whether or not there is an elevation change, unless you tell it by navigating somewhere. It could take a guess, but that guess still has plenty of chanc…

Why should the car use an average .250 kWh/mi hardcoded rate on a car I have owned for 4 years when it knows my lifetime average is 0.300 kWh/mi?

There's plenty of smarter things it can do by default other than "its hard, meh".

They are gonna figure out how to do coast to coast self driving this year but can't project a reasonable battery range estimate given temperature/driver history/weather? Do they need more GPUs?

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#518

Post by treyd »

01100011 wrote: post #513
malwrar wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually got stranded once for some hours because of the mileage indicator! Was driving back from a campsite that I turned out to not have charging compatibility with, but thought I had plenty of margin to get to the nearest charger. As I drove through the mountains however, I began noticing that a.) my battery was depleting much faster than expected and b.) I wasn’t seeing any houses and very few motorists. I watc…

FWIW, I was stranded due to a bug in the fuel level indicator and mileage remaining estimate on my 2017 Subaru Outback. Subaru knows about the issue but you have to bring it to their attention if you want a fix. Not giving Tesla a pass here, just mentioning that it's not unique to them.

>Subaru knows about the issue but you have to bring it to their attention if you want a fix.

This seems incredibly irresponsible when people could die from being stranded when the meter lies about being able to get home like the other commenter described.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#519

Post by steveBK123 »

moduspol wrote: post #470
steveBK123 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably showing range in 3 different places that don't really agree is bad right? We are HN tech crowd here so its all fun & games hobbyist stuff. But normies do not want to get into these types of inane subtleties. Arguably the front & center, always-there range display should be the most accurate, not the least accurate.

The only way to show the most accurate estimate is to know where the driver is going, and many drivers don't always input their destination. It can also vary dramatically based on how you drive, and in fact, if you do have a destination, it will give hints if relevant (e.g. "keep speed below 70 mph to reach destination"). You can switch the EPA-rated miles for a battery percentage indicator by just tapping it in the…

Let's say you live in a state with a 55mph speed limit. The car has a lifetime average of 0.300 kWh/mi over 4 years of driving. It's December, ambient temperature is 20F and it is snowing. Your last 10 drives consumption rate was 0.400 kWh/mi because its cold out.

There's A LOT of smarter things the car can do than use its factory set 0.250 kWh/mi consumption to spit out the range on dashboard.

Erring on the side of caution would also always be better, whereas it is erring on the side of showing the absolute best state that I as an individual never experienced in 4 years of ownership.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#520

Post by steveBK123 »

cevn wrote: post #420
steveBK123 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having owned a Tesla and non-Tesla EV the approach to range is entirely different. Tesla - I literally never achieved the advertised range once. BMW - I exceed the advertised range during low-speed highway cruises in ideal summer conditions. Tesla - the range it shows me in car (not in nav) is the never-achievable EPA range. BMW - the range it shows me in car (not in nav) adjusts ride to ride based on efficiency on m…

Exactly. Doing all this math when the main estimator says X is exhausting. Obviously I use percentage now but there is a problem with that estimate and a lot of people just want to pretend everything is fine.

Right, make it a toggle in menu - dashboard range estimator: [spec/pessimistic/optimistic].

Include weather, recent trips, lifetime consumption rates, type of road currently driving, etc.

Do anything other than the absolute simplest, laziest, most optimistic estimation which is "hey I bet you'll get the almost impossible-to-meet spec consumption rate!".

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