Young people are flocking to astrology • Hacker News Board

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#611

Post by achenet » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:21 PM UTC

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #586

achenet wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and with organised religion you get the crusades and the inquisition. Current day catholicism is pretty nice, because we've had a good 300+ years of post-englightenment/rationalism in society to balance out the violent intolerance religion zealots can dish out. agree that religious/spiritual groups can be good for social ties. To be fair, playing badmington every tuesday night is also good for social ties, and less l…

> You know, given the choice between ISIS and antivaxxers, I think I'll take the anitvaxxers. Say Christian nationalism rose to it's post-reconstruction prominence. Where would you put it? > agree that religious/spiritual groups can be good for social ties. Further: Religious humanitarian projects aren't insignificant and it's not like they're competing with non-religious aid. If aiding religions disappeared, nothing…

> Say Christian nationalism rose to it's post-reconstruction prominence. Where would you put it?

I had to look up what this meant, so if I'm mis-interpreting it, please correct me.

But from what I understand it's just ISIS but swap the Quran for the Bible? Not a huge fan of that idea. Really any fundamentalist religion ramming it's morality down my throat grinds my gears. Still prefer the anti-vaxxers. At least they're not going to tell me how to live my life. They're more like drunk drivers - I have to deal with their stupidity endangering my life, but with religious freaks I have to deal with their stupidity endangering my life (because the Pope declared that vaccines weren't kosher, or that the new cancer treatment is heresy, or stem cell research displeases the Prophet, and you can't argue with that because it's religion, it is by definition arbitrary, disagree and the Pope sends you off to get burned at the stake for heresy), and them controlling every minute detail of my life (prayer mandated, dress code mandated, etc).

> If aiding religions disappeared, nothing would fill the vacuum - because the vacuum is far from filled now.

that's a strong claim and and I don't think your reasoning adequately supports it.

Still, I suppose it's possible that if all religious groups disappeared tomorrow secular sources of aid would not move to compensate. shrug

Nevethless, I don't think "there isn't enough aid now, ergo if religions disappear there will be even less" is a logically sound argument, perhaps there are some intermediate steps to your reasoning that I'm missing, if so please explain them :)

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#612

Post by Jemm » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:24 PM UTC

I know the person who wrote the astrology forecasts for a major publication. She would boast about how she made it all up.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#613

Post by glimshe » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:24 PM UTC

pedrosorio wrote: post #547

glimshe wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can "tolerate" aliens? Alien life has a very high chance of existing - according to many scientists, more likely than it not existing. Alien intelligence less so, but still quite likely to exist. I find your take on people who believe in Astrology condescending. I know intelligent and accomplished people who believe in Astrology. The explanation is very simple: they simply didn't think it through and keep checkin…

> find them entertaining I also find them entertaining. That doesn’t mean I believe them. > The explanation is very simple: they simply didn't think it through Something I rely on to predict the future is the kind of thing I would want to think through. That’s particularly hard to believe of “intelligent people” when checking that it’s nonsense takes very little effort. There may be an education-intelligence gap that…

Intelligence is multi faceted. You can be an excellent lawyer yet not stop to think about whether Astrology is falsifiable and what were the results of experiments that tested it. It can be fun in the sense that it appears useful and uplifting.

Not every intelligent and capable person is a rationalist. I'd say that normal people reflect little about truths, instead relying on feelings and word of mouth. It got us to survive all the way to 2023, it's not such a terrible approach.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#614

Post by FishInTheWater » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:24 PM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #575

I have a pet theory that things like astrology, tarot, the I Ching, Myers Briggs, etc. are valuable (and therefore stick around) not because they have a supernatural or scientific ability to make correct predictions, but because they provide a useful framework for discussing topics. So for example, even if tarot doesn't give you supernatural insight, the discussion it generates with the card reader may allow you to r…

You're assuming here that there has to be "real" value at the root. This isn't really true.

Astrology, Tarot, the I Ching, or any other kind of divination all serve the same purpose: To provide certainty where there is none. To measure the unknowable.

People fear the unknown and risk, divination lets them feel like they have some certainty about the future.

Myers Briggs, DISC, and all the other "personality tests" are the same thing, for contemporary times.

They provide no actual measurement of applicants, Myers-Briggs is especially easy to cheat and dubious in science.

The benefit is that managers feel like they're taking less risk when hiring, but that is mere delusion.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#615

Post by AlexandrB » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

fullspectrumdev wrote: post #532

zzzeek wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was definitely flirting and astrology rescued this woman from having to date someone alarmingly rigid and humorless in their thinking . Score one for astrology

[flagged]

Love to see anti-intellectualism on "Hacker" News.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#616

Post by jncfhnb » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

mekoka wrote: post #592

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously. I consider them beyond reason so I don't even try. If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology, it shows a deeper problem and I don't hope to have an intelligent discussion with them any more than I expect to have an int…

The conditioned response that you're talking about is typical in a culture where we're taught to trust in science. I'm not saying that anyone should believe in astrology (I don't), but having spent the last few years looking into a number of topics similarly treated as esoterica, my understanding is that we're often unaware that science as a discipline is not dogmatic in what is possible. But human bias is probably i…

Skepticism, including skepticism about your skeptic reasoning, is the scientific ideal. Adherence to published literature is not.

Questioning popular scientific beliefs in no way implies that things like astrology gain credibility. It is not a simple two way spectrum of truth.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#617

Post by ecshafer » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:26 PM UTC

zanellato19 wrote: post #597

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #576

Increased interest in astrology has been noted before in societies with declining traditional religious belief and greater feelings of uncertainty. Whereas a Christian would leave his concerns about things out of his control with God, and a stoic might simply accept his powerlessness, the anxious remainder look for other ways of trying to cope. Astrology has a track record of filling this void with its fatalism, and…

That's interesting, do you have any reading material on that?

Jung wrote extensively on the idea that people flock to new age ideas when traditional religion declines.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#618

Post by Fnoord » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:27 PM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #575

I have a pet theory that things like astrology, tarot, the I Ching, Myers Briggs, etc. are valuable (and therefore stick around) not because they have a supernatural or scientific ability to make correct predictions, but because they provide a useful framework for discussing topics. So for example, even if tarot doesn't give you supernatural insight, the discussion it generates with the card reader may allow you to r…

That's not merely your pet theory, theologians come down to the same conclusion with regards to the use of religion in old and modern society versus the lack of religion in our modern society. There is a good reason religion is banned in communist countries; people are supposed to believe in communism.

I've grown up with the Christian moral framework, and I'm happy with it even though I'm atheist (OK, technically agnostic but in practice atheist).

The difference is that Myers Briggs was thought to have a scientific underlying background while it turned out it hasn't. Still, compared to what we used before such as the four temperaments [1] it is an improvement.

Like candiddevmike, Tarot can be used for good by using it simply as an inspiration tool instead of 'the truth'. The same is true for MBTI. Or even the four temperaments or DISC.

Astrology goes a step too far though. Tarot can give you meaningful insight about why things are the way they are or how you could improve. But based on your own interpretation (if you DIY). Astrology takes it a step further by making things up, generalizing it, and publishing such in a magazine, newspaper, or website. But its among a lot of low effort pulp commonly available these days.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_temperaments

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#619

Post by atlantic » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

suslik wrote: post #577

atlantic wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About a third of Newton's surviving manuscripts deal with physics. The rest deals with esoteric biblical exegesis and alchemy. Just another dumbo, I guess.

Not a dumbo, but such a massive waste of talent. Nobody would care to remember Newton's name if that wasn't for his work in physics. T. Acquinas is a another example - an extremely intelligent person who wasted his life on a word salad that can now be generated using chat GPT.

"Word salad" - I can't understand it, so surely it's meaningless.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#620

Post by Izkata » Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

Swenrekcah wrote: post #260

copperx wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we're getting into the unproductive game of definitions, but perhaps stereotyping is still stereotyping when the categories are completely made up. After all, stereotyping implies incorrect categories. Otherwise it would be called classification.

Getting deeper into semantics, I have always understood stereotypes to be an essentially correct general average. Then of course people are so different that the average for a group fits no person in the group more than perhaps 30% so it always ends up being wrong when applied without thought. But the general stereotype is not “completely made up” so to speak, it’s an observed average. Then of course some total crap…

Or based on a misunderstanding, but still coming from a real observation. For example in the US, apparently there used to be a stereotype that polish people are stupid, which came from language differences - polish immigrants had a lot more trouble with English than everyone else, or even were less likely to know any English.