Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#141

Post by KerrAvon » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

realusername wrote: post #83

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be true? IIRC, PRISM was less about direct access, and more about abusing every potential method of gaining information. For example, imagine a Login page that said, "Password incorrect," versus "User does not exist." If you have "User does not exist," you could use that to figure out whether a given email address has an account with a service. That could be useful information to PRISM when looking for a t…

> That could be true? IIRC, PRISM was less about direct access, and more about abusing every potential method of gaining information. Direct access to the data was mentioned in the Guardian and other newspapers

Newspapers often get details wrong.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#142

Post by colechristensen » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

whartung wrote: post #134

Will Apple still support SMS? Will users be notified that they’re “suddenly” dropped down to a less secure channel or will the simply have to pay attention to the text color and actually know what they mean?

I assume just green text boxes instead of blue ones.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#143

Post by detourdog » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

cguess wrote: post #26

graypegg wrote: post #8

I do like how Apple has backed themselves into a consumer-protecting hole here. I’m sure they would love to have access to that much conversational data themselves, of which no other company has access to. If Siri ever improves too significantly I’ll get nervous.

The difference is that they make money on hardware and the app stores, not on advertising (they have a small ad product but it's probably closer to a rounding error).

Like all the PC companies of the 70's. When Apple was launched software was mostly free.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#144

Post by glimshe » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

Doches wrote: post #3

obituary_latte wrote: post #2

Stuff like this is why I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm happy to pay a premium and be locked into their walled garden for some things if it means supporting a company that has the power to shift policy in favor of human rights (privacy in this case).

In fairness, Meta has said the same thing re: WhatsApp, so while Apple deserves _some_ credit here for sticking to their principles, they're not exactly leading the pack. Which brings home the point that if _Meta_ isn't onboard with your privacy-obliterating proposal then you know you've really lost the plot...

In even more fairness, Meta has literally skipped the EU for Threads instead of increasing privacy. In their case, it's just a careful balance of virtue signaling, it had no qualms about pushing their spyware to hundreds of millions of people, violating basic human rights in the process.

Check Article 12:

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#145

Post by InsomniacL » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

I'm not against breaking e2ee when the right protections are in place.

1, Court signed order 2, Public Disclosure during prosecution or within X time of the court order being signed (including when no wrongdoing found) 3, Some sort of test to ensure it's not misused (imminent threat to life, serious crime like murder/child kidnap or something)

The idea that a judge can order a cavity search to find information leading to the location of a suspected murdered/dying child but not to read a message between the suspected murders phones seems ludicrous.

It appears at least in some of the US/UK, a judge can order you to give information including your phone password and if you don't, you become a criminal for that.

I'm just suggesting the question should be around where do we draw the line on privacy vs protection and what safeguards do we put in place.

I.E on a scale of speeding ticket to terrorist attack.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#146

Post by Night_Thastus » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

There's a lot of good reasons to hate Apple, but when they're right they're right, and I definitely appreciate that they're willing to stand up for something like this, even if it is in their best interest.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#147

Post by Eighth » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

mihaaly wrote: post #123

I wonder why the UK legislators not preparing a new regulation mandating every keys to every door and safe having a bypass mechanism for government officials. Behind every door and every locked place there could be child pornography and illicit materials hidden!! Every house, every hotel safe are suspects! Criminal oversight, criminal oversight! (and if they think their reasoning for backdoors into online chat and co…

Anecdotally, I've heard the argument made that police can knock in doors for raids, and they should have the same power over technology.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#148

Post by detourdog » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

konschubert wrote: post #73

graypegg wrote: post #8

I do like how Apple has backed themselves into a consumer-protecting hole here. I’m sure they would love to have access to that much conversational data themselves, of which no other company has access to. If Siri ever improves too significantly I’ll get nervous.

Companies like money. You can’t eat data, you need a machine that can turn it into money. Facebook uses user data to target ads. Apple doesn’t do this, so they don’t need the data. If Siri gets better, it’s because Apple have switched it to a better LLM, not because Apple started sucking up magic data dust. I’m pretty sure that Siri can already read your messages, that’s the point, it’s a speech interface that runs i…

Siri's real trick is being able to answer anything without knowing who is asking or the context.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#149

Post by algas » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

tarxvf wrote: post #121

wonderwonder wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company doesn't have a hundred thousand armed officers with the ability to arrest / kill me for anything they can claim they found. Government comes equipped with legal violence, the company comes equipped with targeted ads

And the company can give your data to the government with no recourse available to you and no warrant required from the government.

Which is a good reason to avoid giving your data to either one in the first place. If I don't have a choice though, I'll take the company over the government any day.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#150

Post by pshirshov » Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

inopinatus wrote: post #85

edandersen wrote: post #18

Are iMessage and Facetime disabled in China?

Kinda apropos, I’ve used international data roaming in mainland China and was (initially) astonished to find it totally bypassed the GFW and I could run IPsec and SSH unencumbered, none of the unabashed MITM fuckery I saw from using strong crypto over Chinese hotel wifi for more than a couple of seconds. That was a few years ago, I don’t know where their interception regime is at today, but it was a reminder that pro…

LTE and 5G standards allow end-to-end encryption of the roaming traffic. So, it's by design. If your operator chooses to enable e2e (and usually they do), there would be just two options: block your traffic entirely or let it pass as it is.