Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity • Hacker News Board

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#751

Post by sfn42 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 6:39 PM UTC

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #626

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Teach kids more, not less It's an odd combination of teaching kids too much in elementary school and too little in high. The children are exposed to a far more comprehensive curriculum at the expense of never practicing the skills enough to master them. As soon as summer resets their brains, they suddenly have large gaps in knowledge that slow next year's learning.

> As soon as summer resets their brains, they suddenly have large gaps in knowledge that slow next year's learning. One loves to say that summer vacations are long so that pupils have time to fill the gaps for the next school year. If they don't use this time (or their parents don't urge them to), it is their problem.

Nobody's spending their vacation studying if they can avoid it.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#752

Post by throwanem » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 6:40 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #744

throwanem wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're putting "plotted to" and "successfully" to a lot of work here, on behalf of claims your sources appear at great pains not to make or even imply. You seem to take this whole concept very seriously, so maybe you can help me understand why. Out of the idea that Russians are responsible for all of America's worst problems, what endgame do you see that actually improves our situation? What specific and relevant cha…

Out of the idea that Russians are responsible for all of America's worst problems Translation: "A good-faith discussion is not going to happen, so let's hit the mud and see how dirty we can get." I don't think so. Only one of us would enjoy it.

It's a little rich of you to plead good faith at this point, don't you think? You're not that far out over your skis with those sources by mistake; they simply do not say what you claim they say. But I am legitimately curious what endgame you have in mind here.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#753

Post by sfn42 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

recursive wrote: post #532

ryandamm wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The results cited in the article suggest that either the answer is yes, or in fact "marginal students" are perfectly capable students who were being passed over. The text of the article further suggests that many of the students who scored well on qualifying exams weren't taking the classes because they didn't have the parental involvement or default assumption that they would take it. (Note that the opt-out group wa…

Am I meant to believe that all students are equally capable? That's a tough sell.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#754

Post by nobody9999 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 7:01 PM UTC

okeuro49 wrote: post #715

nobody9999 wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The issue is, from my view, very much a problem of the Left-wing in the US, introducing victim/oppressor politics into schools, teaching children primarily to regard themselves as activists first, and students second. Where is this being done? What school districts specifically ? What are the specific topics that "introduce victim/oppressor politics into schools?" I'd really like to know, as I'm not aware of any of…

For one example, Abigail Shrier's book "Irreversible Damage" covers the mental health crisis amongst girls identifying as transgender. An excerpt from the section "Trans as an intersectional shield": > "“Of all of these badges of victim status, the only one that you can actually choose is ‘trans,’” Heather Heying, visiting fellow at Princeton University, pointed out to me. “All you have to do is declare ‘I’m trans’ a…

Thanks! I can recommend those for reading lists in the public schools near me.

That doesn't answer the question I asked, nor does it show anything even close to encouraging a "victim/oppressor" environment.

No one is trans because its' "cool" or because someone mentioned that trans people (less than 1% of the population) exist. Do you know anyone who is trans? It's certainly not some golden road to peer/social acceptance and popularity. Quite the opposite, in fact.

In fact, trans folks are routinely subject to harassment, ridicule, threats and physical violence. Stopping such abuse is the goal, not creating more trans folks -- which is ridiculous on its face.

That you take your own trained-in prejudices for the laws of nature don't make them so.

None of what you posted makes your point, rather it just points up that you don't like what certain people have to say and you want such ideas and people suppressed. What are you afraid of?

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#755

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 7:03 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #747

nemo44x wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s 0 evidence of that. What has happened is the lower class family structure has been decimated as generation after generation of mother becomes a client of the state and dads aren’t around because they aren’t actually needed. The kids have not benefited from this (there’s no metric that shows this and in fact the achievement gap has widened and prison outcomes are increased for lower class kids) and in fact are…

You're telling me there's zero evidence of my claim and yet you are going deeper down the hole of thoroughly disproven theories. Child poverty numbers in the US were the best ever recorded just prior to the pandemic and you can draw very direct lines from government anti-poverty programs as being a major contributing factor. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/09/record-drop-i...

All that chart shows is how they have successfully ganked more and more money from taxpayers. Where does it show outcomes have been improved or that the outcomes of kids from single mothers (those that have been "lifted out of poverty") are improving relative to traditional families? The outcomes I see VS 75 years ago is that incarceration rates are through the roof, premature death due to drug use is through the roof, and suicide is too.

The fact that being "lifted out of poverty" is somehow seen as a victory when the state has aggressively promoted and incentivized single motherhood for the last 50+ years is astounding. Because that's all a dad was good for. Things.

I'm not sure if it's men that allowed this to happen or if women just fell for it. But it's clearly indicative of the massive decline the West has seen.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#756

Post by themitigating » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 7:04 PM UTC

Scubabear68 wrote: post #714

themitigating wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NJ is pretty highly ranked according to National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) for reading and math. They have data on grades 4 and 8 for the year 2022 [1] Grade 4 - Math #10 Reading #5 Grade 8 - Math #7 Reading #1 Wallethub.com said it's #3 overall [2] US New and World Reports said it's #2 overall for education[3] In 2019 EducationWeek ranked it #1 [4] ---------- "they didn’t assign homework “because of…

Note that school systems in NJ as a rule are not state run, but locally run. Quality varies wildly by district. In fact, real estate prices vary in direct proportion to quality of schools in NJ towns very closely. We happen to be in a lousy district. Yes, Covid uniformly hurt all schools. But don’t presume to know our kids, our schools, or our context. Our public schools have always had lousy standardized test result…

Edit: I know school quality varies between district but I only knew your state. You also mentioned that it's about money but then complained about your tax dollars being wasted. Wouldn't an increase in spending help your district? What would happen if you spent half of what you paid for private schools on tutors and kept your kids in public?

---- edit end

Your fixation with standardized tests is unusual for this site. It's a complicated debate but you seem to have a strong opinion about the value of standardized tests

Some colleges don't even require them anymore [1] as you mentioned. The NEA claims they don't properly measure student value [2].

Finally, I know many children of immigrants who literally have burned out because of a singular focus on education by their parents. That's anecdotal of course and I almost stupid mentioning the steretype. However, this may be a real issue even if it's not all[3].

You have focused on these tests often in your comments. Do you have evidence these are a good measure of intelligence or ability related to either to college or the workplace?

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/23/us/SAT-ACT-abolish-debate...

[2]https://theeyeopener.com/2019/01/added-pressure-students-of-...

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#757

Post by okeuro49 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 7:13 PM UTC

nobody9999 wrote: post #754

okeuro49 wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one example, Abigail Shrier's book "Irreversible Damage" covers the mental health crisis amongst girls identifying as transgender. An excerpt from the section "Trans as an intersectional shield": > "“Of all of these badges of victim status, the only one that you can actually choose is ‘trans,’” Heather Heying, visiting fellow at Princeton University, pointed out to me. “All you have to do is declare ‘I’m trans’ a…

Thanks! I can recommend those for reading lists in the public schools near me. That doesn't answer the question I asked, nor does it show anything even close to encouraging a "victim/oppressor" environment. No one is trans because its' "cool" or because someone mentioned that trans people (less than 1% of the population) exist. Do you know anyone who is trans? It's certainly not some golden road to peer/social accept…

> Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity ("I'm just trying to have a debate"), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#758

Post by slt2021 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 7:13 PM UTC

petsfed wrote: post #748

slt2021 wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropping birth rate is not a problem at all, Europe Scandinavia Australia has dropping birth rate but much better social situation. The rest of your argument is incoherent and does not have a point, so I dont event understand what is it about. Overpolicing is a myth, because cops are policing where crime actually happens. Doesnt make sense for police to patrol law abiding medium/high class neighborhoods if crime does…

Ok, I'll clarify: Your claim is that "hook up culture" is causing all these kids to grow up single-parent households. This flies in the face of all kinds of studies that show that, starting with millenials, kids are waiting longer to have sex, and are having fewer partners than e.g. baby boomers. At the same time, young adults are waiting longer to get married than baby boomers, are getting married less often, and on…

your argument is only true for normal, trouble-free, law abiding, functional families. You are right, millenials take their time to have babies later, because they plan, because it is expensive to have kid etc etc.

You are probably projecting yourself as a well-off individual to the society.

this is not true for low SES stratum: the girls in poor hoods start hookups in middle/high-school. They get pregnant at high school, have unplanned babies without father etc etc.

It is almost as if we are talking about two different Americas: white & black. Medium+ class and Poor class

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#759

Post by petsfed » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 7:34 PM UTC

slt2021 wrote: post #758

petsfed wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I'll clarify: Your claim is that "hook up culture" is causing all these kids to grow up single-parent households. This flies in the face of all kinds of studies that show that, starting with millenials, kids are waiting longer to have sex, and are having fewer partners than e.g. baby boomers. At the same time, young adults are waiting longer to get married than baby boomers, are getting married less often, and on…

your argument is only true for normal, trouble-free, law abiding, functional families. You are right, millenials take their time to have babies later, because they plan, because it is expensive to have kid etc etc. You are probably projecting yourself as a well-off individual to the society. this is not true for low SES stratum: the girls in poor hoods start hookups in middle/high-school. They get pregnant at high sc…

Speaking as the brother to a teen mother, I am saying you're wrong, and the data backs me up. Speaking as a person who was quite poor in his twenties and early thirties, I'm saying you're wrong, and the data backs me up.

Teenage pregnancies are dropping, across the board. Children are waiting longer to start having sex, across the board. Young people are having fewer sexual partners ACROSS THE BOARD.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#760

Post by spicymapotofu » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 8:34 PM UTC

biofox wrote: post #711

guidoism wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I say to anyone who will listen is that we have lived through the moment in history when the cost to receive a world-class elite education has collapsed to near zero and hardly anybody has noticed. We still talk as if an official four year university education is the goal and bemoan the cost of it rising faster than general inflation and worry about taking on debt that will burden them for the rest of their…

The sort of personal mentoring, practical supervision, and social skills development that is required for intellectual maturity cannot be acquired from YouTube videos.

I learned these skills more thoroughly in a week of fast food training than in sixteen years of public and private schooling. If these are important context for education, you'd think we would still teach decorum.