Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity • Hacker News Board

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#711

Post by biofox » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 10:12 AM UTC

guidoism wrote: post #579

bluescrn wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The internet should have transformed education. For curious self-learners it has, there’s incredible resources online for those who seek them out. But it hasn’t made much of a dent in ‘the education system’

Something I say to anyone who will listen is that we have lived through the moment in history when the cost to receive a world-class elite education has collapsed to near zero and hardly anybody has noticed. We still talk as if an official four year university education is the goal and bemoan the cost of it rising faster than general inflation and worry about taking on debt that will burden them for the rest of their…

The sort of personal mentoring, practical supervision, and social skills development that is required for intellectual maturity cannot be acquired from YouTube videos.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#712

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 10:55 AM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #678

tootie wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one has ever incentivized single parenthood. We offered protection for children born into difficult circumstances not of their making.

There’s 0 evidence of that. What has happened is the lower class family structure has been decimated as generation after generation of mother becomes a client of the state and dads aren’t around because they aren’t actually needed. The kids have not benefited from this (there’s no metric that shows this and in fact the achievement gap has widened and prison outcomes are increased for lower class kids) and in fact are…

> dads aren’t around because they aren’t actually needed

They're incarcerated [1].

[1] https://nij.ojp.gov/media/image/19511

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#713

Post by htfu » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 11:13 AM UTC

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #614

htfu wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be clear, the specific policy I just mentioned really is part of the document - allowing students to always redo work for a better grade. If you've learned the material and fulfill the requirements, and the course is still ongoing, why should it matter you were late? Are you teaching the subject, or is [literally every course all the time] really mostly a study in time management? (hint: it's not for the student…

> If you've learned the material and fulfill the requirements, and the course is still ongoing, why should it matter you were late? The same reason it matters if you are late meeting deadlines for a customer or your job, because there are consequences. Turning in a paper late to school may not cause you to lose a client or get fired, but the fact remains that something was required of you and it was not delivered. Im…

Work deadlines, at least where I've worked and with some exceptions for rare hard deadlines, are rather more fluid. In the sense that they might have to be pushed, or the work adjusted, because they were too optimistic or circumstances change. Because your boss knows you know what you're doing and aren't talking out of your ass when you give them a heads up things are not on track. More importantly they're there for some legit reason, not "so you'll learn the importance of hardship". Getting stuff done and having an impact is motivating enough, producing worthless schoolwork of no use to anyone is not.

> lowering the requirements

They're the same requirements, just with a different, looser, time constraint. You couldn't get a better grade without actually learning the material. Performing tasks on time, managing time, etc is incredibly important, obviously. But in an ideal world with more resources there'd be a time and a place for practicing it, reasoning about it, actually studying it, not this "absorbing it by osmosis from a constant grind" where it's all artificial. Work smart, not hard.

Consequences are still there, you still have to perform, it'd just be less time constrained.

Why would a person who has never done homework in their life be more stressed over a huge workload? They're used to working all day, _in school_. Just like how they'll be working all day, at work. Obviously I'm not talking about not having assignments/papers to write (preferably with at least some time allotted during school hours), but the kind of busywork that is the bulk of homework.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#714

Post by Scubabear68 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 11:16 AM UTC

themitigating wrote: post #702

Scubabear68 wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two ways: 1) The kids State Standardized test scores were abysmal, but they were given great scores by the school. If they failed tests they were given unrelated “makeup work” to being their grade back. 2) during Covid, everything went online and we could see all the work being given. Our daughter was specifically given topics 2 grades below her actual grade to keep her grade up. Her teachers told her this, and they…

NJ is pretty highly ranked according to National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) for reading and math. They have data on grades 4 and 8 for the year 2022 [1] Grade 4 - Math #10 Reading #5 Grade 8 - Math #7 Reading #1 Wallethub.com said it's #3 overall [2] US New and World Reports said it's #2 overall for education[3] In 2019 EducationWeek ranked it #1 [4] ---------- "they didn’t assign homework “because of…

Note that school systems in NJ as a rule are not state run, but locally run. Quality varies wildly by district. In fact, real estate prices vary in direct proportion to quality of schools in NJ towns very closely.

We happen to be in a lousy district. Yes, Covid uniformly hurt all schools. But don’t presume to know our kids, our schools, or our context. Our public schools have always had lousy standardized test results, even pre-Covid. Post Covid it is getting worse and worse - a few weeks ago our Superintendent rejoiced that we should all just ignore those scores, because more and more colleges are not requiring SAT or ACT scores for admission. He said this and wrote it in a presentation. A celebration of ignorance. Paid for by my tax dollars.

Ugh.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#715

Post by okeuro49 » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 11:21 AM UTC

nobody9999 wrote: post #596

okeuro49 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from the UK, so view the issue impartially. The issue is, from my view, very much a problem of the Left-wing in the US, introducing victim/oppressor politics into schools, teaching children primarily to regard themselves as activists first, and students second. I can also see it is causing a mental health crisis in students, who increasingly are under pressure to identify as an oppressed minority, in order to be…

>The issue is, from my view, very much a problem of the Left-wing in the US, introducing victim/oppressor politics into schools, teaching children primarily to regard themselves as activists first, and students second. Where is this being done? What school districts specifically ? What are the specific topics that "introduce victim/oppressor politics into schools?" I'd really like to know, as I'm not aware of any of…

For one example, Abigail Shrier's book "Irreversible Damage" covers the mental health crisis amongst girls identifying as transgender.

An excerpt from the section "Trans as an intersectional shield":

> "“Of all of these badges of victim status, the only one that you can actually choose is ‘trans,’” Heather Heying, visiting fellow at Princeton University, pointed out to me. “All you have to do is declare ‘I’m trans’ and boom, you’re trans. And there you get to rise in the progressive stack and you have more credibility in this intersectional worldview.”

And earlier context:

> Kindergarteners are introduced to the “Genderbread Person”15 and “Gender Unicorn.”16 Kindergarten teachers read from I Am Jazz, and the little ones are taught that they might have a “girl brain in a boy body” or vice versa.17

> Teachers present an array of gender and sexual identity options and appear pleasantly surprised when a child chooses wisely (that is, anything but cisgender).

> The schools are not forcing adolescents to identify as transgender, but they are greasing the skids. The LGBTQ safe house they’ve fashioned is avant-garde and enticing, framed with moral superiority, insulated with civil rights...

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#716

Post by htfu » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 11:24 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #674

htfu wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be clear, the specific policy I just mentioned really is part of the document - allowing students to always redo work for a better grade. If you've learned the material and fulfill the requirements, and the course is still ongoing, why should it matter you were late? Are you teaching the subject, or is [literally every course all the time] really mostly a study in time management? (hint: it's not for the student…

It's not fair to other students if there's a no-penalty late policy. If some students turn in their work on time, and others turn it in late, it's not fair to the former if the latter have zero penalty. The reason for this is that the students who turned in the homework on time had to make other sacrifices in order to do so. For example, they might have studied less for a test in another class in order to turn in the…

Right but that'd actually be one of the benefits. Getting perfect grades in high school for me without spending all my time doing school stuff was a mad juggling of focusing/neglecting classes on rotation, always ensuring to get an A by the smallest possible margin, knowing how to properly front-load and have each teacher thinking of me as the kind of guy who gets an A, so I could get away with performing poorly at times before making a comeback.

A weird dance I happened to be good at, but not a skill to cherish or practice _because real work is rarely overloaded enough to make it necessary_

School should be about learning, not whatever meta bullshit the above was, at least for me.

Having more flexibility over pace would go a long way I think.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#717

Post by mangodrunk » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 11:31 AM UTC

tnecniv wrote: post #660

mangodrunk wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how that is a logical conclusion. There’s such a thing as opportunity cost and interests. If someone wants to learn something, they should, but the problem is forcing those to learn something when they would rather learn something else. There are basic things that everyone should know, like reading. Instead of calculus, logic would be better, and especially probability and statistics.

Probability and stats requires calculus

It doesn’t, especially at the introductory level. Sure, at a certain point, it would be needed, but that would be for someone wanting to become a statistician, not the general population.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#718

Post by hospitalJail » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 11:47 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #584

hospitalJail wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go straight to college. I had a somewhat similar issue in high school and 1 summer class got me more advanced than anyone else, I was able to duel enroll after that.

Dual enroll meaning take classes at a nearby college while going to high school? Do HSs let you take just part of their curriculum? Did you go to that college full time later on, or just for a couple years and then apply to regular 4-year colleges?

Yes went during high school hours, they let me out 2 hours early. I didn't get high school credit, but you could fail/skip 2 classes and still graduate. I went to college after this, graduated about 1 year early.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#719

Post by loughnane » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 12:12 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #444

Workaccount2 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At it's very foundation liberal ideology cracks pretty badly if "Everyone is born equally capable" is false.

I suspect that 'liberals believe "Everyone is born equally capable"' is a strawman. I hang out with pretty liberal people and no one actually believes anything like this. Interestingly, the article actually lists out a more nuanced, realistic version of this idea (with a link to research): > But whatever you think about the morality of this idea, it simply will not work. The reason is that the strong hereditarian hyp…

> I hang out with pretty liberal people and no one actually believes anything like this

There is a broad streak of illiberality running through left-leaning Americans who call themselves liberal. At its core liberalism maintains not that everyone is equal in every way, but that virtually everyone is equally capable of flourishing if given the same opportunities.

Liberalism must believe that since its unit of measure is the individual, not a faction or state.

If someone who calls there’ themselves liberal doesn’t believe that I’d like to know what they think liberalism is.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#720

Post by bluGill » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 12:38 PM UTC

nobody9999 wrote: post #605

bluGill wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it was too late for my mom. My mom would have been better off finding a different district that would let her in (this may not have been possible), instead of fighting a system that ultimately failed her.

>Sure, but it was too late for my mom. My mom would have been better off finding a different district that would let her in (this may not have been possible), instead of fighting a system that ultimately failed her. An interesting and important anecdote. But rather than focusing on your mom's inability to take shop class, perhaps you might reflect on the fact that your mom (and many other women/girls) fought for such…

There are two different issues here. Long term change and short term better. Both are very important. There is no reason you cannot work on both at the same time and many reasons you should. My mom trying to get into shop class was part of both, and if she could have switched schools to one that allowed it (see the other reply) that would have done even more as it would prove women are not too [weak, stupid...] to do so.