Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity • Hacker News Board

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#621

Post by s1artibartfast » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 11:45 PM UTC

cmh89 wrote: post #598

s1artibartfast wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree that racial issues have always been a topic in American politics. from the colonial period, to secession from Brittan, to the failed secession of the south, to the civil rights movements, to now. That said, the relative importance of the issue and satisfaction obviously shifts over time. Gallop polling shows that that by many metrics, perceptions of racial Injustice are at a multi-decade high. It is i…

So the actual issue that we've started talking about how our obsession with race effects the people on the losing end of that deal. >. It is interesting that far fewer people feel that black people are treated fairly than in the late 90's. It would be interesting to see data going back even further. It seems intuitive to me. If you have a problem and then activists put in a ton of time to make that problem more visib…

Keep in mind my point was that the political emphasis on race is at a high point.

I agree that if activist put a lot of emphasis on this and make it more visible that this feeling will be stronger. That doesn't negate the point above, it supports it.

Sure, people can argue over how productive the additional attention is for actually resolving issues, but that's not what I'm trying to do. I merely staying that attention is very high right now

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#622

Post by javajosh » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 11:47 PM UTC

dealuromanet wrote: post #340

javajosh wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Harrison Bergeron is a dystopia, not a training manual There are people, many people, who disagree with you. In good faith. They want the best for everyone, and they see inequality as the source of much suffering, and does it not make sense to address the core of the problem? The problem with such people is that they lack the imagination and humility to understand the downsides to their proposed "solution". They cho…

I think a good solution is universal basic income that increases in size as automation unlocks more for everyone. Then over time, everyone becomes increasingly empowered to self-actualize at their localized maximum learning velocity without needing to stunt someone brighter. Sam Altman has a correct understanding on how automation will reduce the marginal cost of doing business so much so that universal basic income…

It's a nice thought. However in practice it will require a great transfer of wealth from AI providers to the public. E.g. if MS office copilot eliminates 10M jobs, and they make some fraction of those wages in revenue, only tax laws on MS will extract that as UBI revenue.

It may also be that we discover how many truly BS jobs there are such that it was all a house of cards to begin with. Not sure what we do then.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#623

Post by guidoism » Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 11:51 PM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #609

guidoism wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell you don't need an official transcript from an accredited school to get into college. We are homeschooling our kids and what I've read is that homeschoolers write their own transcript, the kids themselves write it, and they describe what they've accomplished and learned during their schooling career and admission depts in colleges tend to favor these kids over traditionally schooled kids. I'm gues…

I'd be interested to learn more about this. Where can I find data on how admissions depts view homeschooled kids versus other kids?

I’m just now starting to really look into this since our eldest is now twelve years old. We do unschooling if our home, which is a form of self-directed education, so my focus has been on those experiences.

Here’s an research paper about Grown Unschoolers experiences with higher education, page 38 discusses admissions: https://www.othereducation.org/index.php/OE/article/view/105...

And here’s a reddit thread about homeschoolers getting into Purdue (which is the school I went to): https://www.reddit.com/r/Purdue/comments/bszc3i/have_any_hom...

I’m assuming that each school is going to have their own criteria.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#624

Post by cauch » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 12:01 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #620

cauch wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Canceling advanced classes quite literally prevents people from taking those classes. 1) You've cut my sentence, which says "cancel more advanced classes IF ...", which means that not all advanced classes are cancelled. 2) You are therefore asking to cancel "beginner's classes". I'm saying "cancel advanced classes as long as there are not enough beginner classes", so you are in practice canceling beginner classes.…

> You are therefore asking to cancel "beginner's classes" No, people are not asking to do this, lol. The complaint is about the education report that opposed students being allowed to study algebra in advanced classes. Thats what this is about. > Simply, instead of algebra, do advanced data science Ok, so algebra classes are being cancelled. Yeah, thats the problem! > Which problem exactly? The problem of not being a…

> No, people are not asking to do this, lol. The complaint is about the education report that opposed students being allowed to study algebra in advanced classes.

Obviously, nobody is just coming and saying "lol, I hate children, I want people to be dumb, I will stop them being educated".

The reason this report proposes to replace algebra by data science is because this report argues that data science is making people as smart as algebra, but also, unlike algebra, it does not stop some people to get smart.

(in more details: algebra is a lot of "learn by heart" and is mainly a preparation for higher studies with a learning curve that blocks more people, which means people who have not the luxury to take it will not take it)

> Ok, so algebra classes are being cancelled. Yeah, thats the problem!

They are replaced by something better, and removing them stop some students to end up less smart. Is that really a problem?

I'm sure algebra have some good sides (it's good to get good foundations when someone wants to study math, for example, without being indispensable), but is it worth the cost on other students?

> The problem of not being able to take algebra classes.

And yet before this proposal, no one was able to take data science classes, and no one (and not you) were complaining. Isn't that a bit unfair: you don't mind a world without data science classes (despite the fact that they are better than algebra), but a world without algebra is suddenly a problem (well, not "without algebra", you can still do algebra, just not in the same order)

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#625

Post by dumpsterdiver » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 12:07 AM UTC

rhaway84773 wrote: post #582

btilly wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry. DEI programs have this covered as well. Stop using standardized tests to get in. And then just aim for the perfect "socially desirable" mix. Regardless of ability.

I know it’s vogue to ridicule DEI programs, but the reality is that as the blog post points out, these measures achieve the opposite of DEI (all 3 letters of those). Even standardized tests. There is already evidence that standardized tests reduce equality. Which is not surprising at all because standardized tests are the one part of a college application that someone can excel at purely with concentrated hard work o…

> They will respond by demanding the schools provide more resources so their kids can excel.

Right? Why would any parent want other kids in their class to be dumber so their kid is magically "smarter"? They want their child to grow up to be a competent person who is capable of competing in the world at large, not a wave-through at a "progressive" school.

Parents recognize that their children will be competing with the entire world for jobs, and easily see the folly of such a policy.

Such policy really does seem actively hostile toward the goals of such parents. For a group of educators to suggest that the solution is to do away with "mean grades and homework" is like saying, "We all know that you're kid isn't going succeed in advanced classes so let's not even pretend that they will."

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#626

Post by aleph_minus_one » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 12:07 AM UTC

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #485

pwthornton wrote: post #299

This is the way. Teach kids more, not less. Ask more of them, not less. If you need to lengthen the school day and school year to do so, do it. Do it now. "So what should we do instead? Dallas came up with an answer: Teach kids more math instead of teaching them less. In 2019, Dallas Independent School District implemented a new equity policy that encouraged many more people to take honors math classes: Many capable…

> Teach kids more, not less It's an odd combination of teaching kids too much in elementary school and too little in high. The children are exposed to a far more comprehensive curriculum at the expense of never practicing the skills enough to master them. As soon as summer resets their brains, they suddenly have large gaps in knowledge that slow next year's learning.

> As soon as summer resets their brains, they suddenly have large gaps in knowledge that slow next year's learning.

One loves to say that summer vacations are long so that pupils have time to fill the gaps for the next school year. If they don't use this time (or their parents don't urge them to), it is their problem.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#627

Post by s1artibartfast » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 12:08 AM UTC

eftychis wrote: post #604

s1artibartfast wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA is currently obsessed with race, and this influences all discussions. I agree that this topic could be more accurately and inclusively framed as how to improve outcomes for low income students, or children with absentee/incarcerated parents, or children of addicts. Unfortunately, some people care much more about racial outcomes than they do about any of those I mentioned. The point of the racial framing IS to…

To give a bit of context to all the sibling comments: We are talking about a history where: a) A decision to not occupy a defeated country was made because they were impure/non-white (Mexico)... [I don't think I have encountered a similar historical example. I will spend some time looking/reviewing just in case I am forgetting some similar situation.] b) Called Germans and Finnish immigrants "non-white": https://en.w…

Do you have a source regarding the theory that the race was the primary factor in deciding the territory following the Mexican American war? I haven't encountered this example before. I'm obviously skeptical but willing to read more.

As a counterpoint, the last several centuries are full of examples of countries establishing territories or colonies in foreign lands with different ethnicities. In those cases, the local population was generally not given much power for self governance, if at all.

The US has a pretty long history of returning militarily conquered territory back to locals for self governance. These countries usually remain within the US sphere of influence of course, and often retain a US military presence, but we dont call it occupation or the territories colonies. Instead we call them allies (e.g. Germany, Japan, the Philippines, S Korea, ect).

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#628

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 12:21 AM UTC

rco8786 wrote: post #506

hackerfooze wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. In general what you'll find is that most of these advanced classes are dominated by certain economic groups. Public funds are advancing people with more resources when all they actually need is to pass state college entrance exams. It's not that children from low income families can't do the math, it's that they're at a huge disadvantage when their parents are often working, can't hover over them to make…

So shouldn't the solution be to get kids from lower economic groups into those classes? Rather than stop teaching anyone? The solution you're proposing takes away any chance of accessing these advanced classes for lower economic groups, and keeps the economic inequality moving. What happens when the low income kids test out of the remedial class? Oh well, they're just done with school then? > Every upper-class parent…

[deleted]

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#629

Post by kevinpet » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 12:21 AM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #409

throw9away6 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha that’s not actually happening though because college admissions aren’t going to be based in knowledge but on ability to jump through hoops perfectly

And what, exactly, do you expect administrators to do? They don't have any actual knowledge and if they do, they absolutely do NOT want to use it, so tests are out. There are now more administrators than teaching staff. We're not far off from having more "social" workers in schools than teachers. First and foremost, these people want to decide what is equitable. Firstly, without taking actual ability (or "conscientio…

I thought Scott Alexander's take was interesting https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/why-match-school-and-s... and the phrase "laundering privilege" stuck with me. It's like a crypto mixer but for privilege.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#630

Post by TheCoelacanth » Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 12:22 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #586

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes back much further than that, literally to the founding of the country. Our constitution has provisions specifically protecting the slave trade. The way we elect our president was designed specifically to give slave owners more power. Racism is an integral part of US history and always has been. You literally cannot make sense of US history without it.

Slavery goes back a lot further than the founding of the US, and is important context for broad swaths of History. Regarding the election of the president, I assume you're talking about the 3/5 compromise. I think this had the opposite impact of what you're claiming. It gave white male voters in the south less power. Representation based on total human population would have given them more. If you were voting white m…

Not so. The 3/5 rule and the Electoral College gave slaveholders drastically more power than they should have had.

If the president was elected strictly based on votes cast, the North would have dominated every election.

Not only did the South have completely disenfranchised slaves who nevertheless added to their masters electoral votes, but they also had much more limited franchise even for white males.

The constitution was set up to let the South prevent the vast majority of their people from voting without giving up much political power as a result.