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The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

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Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#661

Post by microtherion »

taeric wrote: post #362
microtherion wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Letzigrund in Zurich, with a capacity of up to 50,000 people for concerts, and absolutely zero street parking available: https://goo.gl/maps/kPye3VdVB9ZLpPsx8

I'd love to see how they manage parking. I'm also a little curious on how to compare capacities. Per wikipedia, it is only 25k for sports. 70+k for teams is common in many of the other stadiums I looked at. That said, I don't exactly know that many stadiums. Very intimidating to see how large many of these places are.

> I'd love to see how they manage parking.

There are a few thousand parking spots in garages a few stops away on the light rail, but the whole district the stadium is in has only about 5k public parking spots overall for ALL purposes. The sensible strategy is to arrive by public transit — many of the events (both concerts and sports events) have a train ticket included in the price of admission, run extra trains for the events, (including extra security in the case of soccer games), and light rail drops you less than 100m from the entrance of the stadium.

If you absolutely need to arrive by car, either come early or pick a garage elsewhere in the city, and take public transit to the stadium.

If you're absolutely allergic to public transit, you could probably get a Taxi, Uber, or friend to drop you off.

For sports events, some of the away fans travel in hired buses which will drop them off at the stadium, wait at some special lot (considerably more space efficient than the equivalent in cars, and can be further away), and pick them up again after the game.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#662

Post by drekk »

midoridensha wrote: post #397
bugglebeetle wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the car-centrism that has wrecked the urban environment cannot be undone simply by enacting hostile legislation. This is exactly what happened in the Netherlands, but the US is a wildly corrupt country with very little in the way of actual representative democracy, which is the primary reason why this (locally) correct. In many other places, it is in fact possible to achieve these outcomes through state power.

>the US is a wildly corrupt country with very little in the way of actual representative democracy, which is the primary reason why this (locally) correct While your assertion about a lack of actual representative democracy may have truth to it, in my view, most Americans hate public transit and really like cars, despite all the clear negatives that come with them (and which those people deny). There are great cities…

I know you prefaced your argument with saying it's your view and all but that's just not based in reality. Americans want alternatives. It's just too bad they can't afford lobbyists to agitate for those policy preferences. https://www.filesforprogress.org/memos/gnd-for-transit-polli...

I suspect maybe part of it is a generational thing. In my circles at least a lot of my peers get actual anxiety while driving. It's certainly the most dangerous thing Americans regularly do.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#663

Post by elijaht »

7speter wrote: post #103
elijaht wrote: post #51

I live car-free in NYC. A large appeal of NYC to me was not having to park. I don't ~mind~ driving, but I absolutely hated having to deal with finding parking when I lived in other cities. Parking generally makes me feel stressed (competition for free spots), or makes me pay (using something like SpotHero makes it easy to find a spot, but costs me). It's not even just major cities either- I'm frequently in a college…

> but for $33 a week I can get to most major neighborhoods in 30 minutes Ahh yes, only the most important, noteworthy neighborhoods that most likely aren’t transit deserts, right?

Some neighborhoods are harder than others, but I have found the subway + bus service + regional rail makes it possible to get ~anywhere~ in an hour from where I live. And those neighborhoods are the exception for me, at least, 99% of my trips really are under 30 minutes.

Driving to those places would be 30+ minutes anyways, some of it really is just distance + gridlock

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#664

Post by PpEY4fu85hkQpn »

spencerchubb wrote: post #360
PpEY4fu85hkQpn wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody wants more built near their land Absolute nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? The existence of NIMBYs proves the statement that people don't want houses built near them. Perhaps I was being hyperbolic with the word "nobody", but the point stands.

And now do the same for the existence of YIMBYs and see why your comment is absolute nonsense.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#665

Post by hypertele-Xii »

fragmede wrote: post #379
hypertele-Xii wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try Mini Motorways. It's a different style of game but certainly captures the futility of car-centric traffic management.

It's a video game so if you're going to learn that lesson from that one, then hopefully you don't play its companion game, Mini Metro, because otherwise you'll conclude that train-centric management is also futile.

But in a different way. In Motorways you actually run out of space to build infrastructure. In Metro you run out of "money" (as represented by incredibly limited resources). They are both games where you're guaranteed to lose (in pursuit of high score), but the gameplay-feel is very different.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#666

Post by stouset »

jabroni_salad wrote: post #270
stouset wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistic parking and mixed-use commercial/residential as common in European cities are my two biggest wishes for Cities 2.

mixed use zoning (and new types of medium zoning like row houses and commie blocks) were in last week's dev diary: https://youtu.be/PBwwZ4XnW34?t=84

I am so happy.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#667

Post by midoridensha »

drekk wrote: post #662
midoridensha wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the US is a wildly corrupt country with very little in the way of actual representative democracy, which is the primary reason why this (locally) correct While your assertion about a lack of actual representative democracy may have truth to it, in my view, most Americans hate public transit and really like cars, despite all the clear negatives that come with them (and which those people deny). There are great cities…

I know you prefaced your argument with saying it's your view and all but that's just not based in reality. Americans want alternatives. It's just too bad they can't afford lobbyists to agitate for those policy preferences. https://www.filesforprogress.org/memos/gnd-for-transit-polli... I suspect maybe part of it is a generational thing. In my circles at least a lot of my peers get actual anxiety while driving. It's c…

My view is based in reality, yours isn't. Just because a small minority of 20-something hipsters want bikeable cities doesn't mean most Americans do. They don't. This has nothing to do with "lobbyists" and everything to do with the voting public, just like Trump was not elected by lobbyists, but instead by half the voting public who supported his repulsive views.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#668

Post by tivert »

mikeyouse wrote: post #337
colonwqbang wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound reasonable. The figures I found say it's 2.5-30x the cost. https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-parking-garage

And the real cost of building parking in a residential building isn't the cost of the concrete and painted lines -- but in the opportunity cost of not being able to build / sell more units in the space occupied by cars.

> And the real cost of building parking in a residential building isn't the cost of the concrete and painted lines -- but in the opportunity cost of not being able to build / sell more units in the space occupied by cars.

It's obviously not that simple, because the US isn't a place where no one wants a car but everyone is somehow forced into getting one. I wouldn't live in a residential building with no space a car, and I'm not alone. I'd imagine that most buildings like that just create an externality, where the residents use parking elsewhere.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#669

Post by tivert »

developerDan wrote: post #395
chii wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

except that one big car is not controlled by you, and you have to schedule your trip around it, rather than have the convenience of any-time availability. Not to mention you can't really carry much onboard.

Do people not have to schedule around 15-30 minute drives? How is that any different from “I can be there in 15 if I make the S3 train otherwise about 25 since I’ll catch the 86 bus that runs shortly after”? There really is no defense at all for being car dependent. Literally every other country in the world proves you don’t need them.

> Do people not have to schedule around 15-30 minute drives?

That's not the same kind of scheduling. You can miss a bus, and be forced to wait for the next one (which will at 15 minutes minimum), but your car departs exactly when you're ready to leave whenever that is. After that, then you add the 15-30 minutes drive time (or more for a bus, if it's not an express bus and makes intermediate stops or if it takes an indirect route for your itinerary). This is so obvious I'm surprised I have to point it out.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#670

Post by spombg »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #259
UtopiaPunk wrote: post #30

There's an interesting interview with a designer of SimCity, where he discusses parking: Geoff Manaugh: While you were making those measurements of different real-world cities, did you discover any surprising patterns or spatial relationships Librande: Yes, definitely. I think the biggest one was the parking lots. When I started measuring out our local grocery store, which I don’t think of as being that big, I was bl…

The excess of cars in cities is bad enough, but I do wonder whether underground parking would at least help. It can be more expensive, especially for taller buildings, but it would eliminate the eyesore and recoup the valuable urban real estate and potentially free up the streets. Realistically, we have to accept that we've spent almost a century creating a situation that has enabled car dominance and that many peopl…

Increasing the amount of parking spaces seems to me like it would further exacerbate the problem of car centrism. Houston will often preach “just one more highway lane. That’ll reduce congestion” but it does the opposite. If we want to reduce the amount of parking, we need to make the alternatives to driving more attractive. That is - investing in public transit, bike paths, and cities that allow anyone to walk no more than 20 minutes to a grocery store.
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