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Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

nautil.us

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Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#91

Post by markus_zhang »

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

The only possibility is...they sank into deep ocean. But then it's going to very unlikely that nothing surfaced for the last 20k or so years. So you have to throw a valcano or a large meteor on top of them, which would require even more proofs.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#93

Post by thrashh »

hooande wrote: post #38
DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

This assumes that their technology would be similar to ours. They could have used biological mechanical parts, made from plant or animal material. They could have had radically different theories of mechanics or construction that better fit the state of the planet at their time. In general the statement "They couldn't have been civilized because they aren't exactly like us" limits what we look for and how we look for…

That’s possible that they don’t have the same materials as us but they would have the same problems.

Take plastic or metal. Their main draw is that they do not decompose or degrade. There are a billion problems that can be solved when you have a material that does not naturally degrade or decompose.

So even if this civilization did not use plastic or metal, I find it hard to believe they didn’t come across a problem that needed a stable non-self-destructing material, which would then have been left behind for us to discover now.

It’s not feasible to build anything advanced if all your materials naturally decay.

It’s true that there are fewer decomposing organisms the farther back you go, but you have to go way way back to a point where the chance of intelligent life existing is pretty low.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#94

Post by nanreh »

xoa wrote: post #31

A civilization that got to "industrial" but didn't make it to the nuclear and particularly space age certainly seems like it could leave little trace over long periods depending on how the cards fell. However, if nothing else our civilization has made a habit of disposing of geosync satellites past their life time into super synchronous graveyard orbits that will last a really long time. At the rate things are going…

I've wondered about stuff we leave off planet too. Like the stuff we left on the Moon. Our rovers on Mars. The JWST. Seems not entirely crazy to be looking in those places for evidence of past Earth-borne civilization.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#95

Post by throw47474777j »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #71
tyg13 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the contrary: the fact that only one ever was found, to me, suggests that it was the work of one brilliant mind whose work was not understood or continued by their culture.

Even if it is a single creator, does it seem realistic that this was the first and only machine they built?

I’ve heard it argued by historians that there were likely to have been multiple prototypes of the antykythera mechanism, but each one was recycled to produce the next.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#97

Post by TechBro8615 »

FredPret wrote: post #43
blueflow wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't undo all the stuff that already is in the ground and rivers everywhere.

After a long time hanging around, some organism might evolve that eats it though

Or a second industrial civilization would use it to power their cars...

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#98

Post by [deleted] »

tyg13 wrote: post #70
marginalia_nu wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there are entire human civilizations we know have existed that we barely have archeological evidence to make sense of. We know they had language, culture, technology and we've found shells, bones and rubble. That, and the fact that we've found one antiktythera mechanism and nothing like it before or since raises questions. It seems implausible for a culture to produce a singular advanced mechanical comput…

To the contrary: the fact that only one ever was found, to me, suggests that it was the work of one brilliant mind whose work was not understood or continued by their culture.

[deleted]

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#99

Post by machina_ex_deus »

Eisenstein wrote: post #85

I can think of one plausible way that this happened: the simulation theory. Seeing as there are only a few logical options: * We stop being able to advance computing power * We somehow make it impossible or undesirable to create a realistic simulation * We destroy ourselves * We advance to the point where can and do create realistic simulations Then there is a very good chance that we are in fact, living in a simulat…

And then you remember that there are 10^23 particles in a single gram, which is in orders of magnitude of all CPUs on earth.

We're as close in orders of magnitude to the size galaxy 10^20 as we are to the nucleus 10^-18. Or put it another way, there is the same amount of units of proton radius in 10 meters as there are 10 meters in the entire Galaxy.

Another way to look at it, is that the most plausible assumption about self- simulation is that it is maxed out at some constant efficiency, say you need a system that is 10 times bigger. Then the entire babushka of simulations are merely a geometric series, and in fact you're most likely to exist in the outermost babushka except the most efficient of all simulations.

If you assume the world is a simulation, it must be an imperfect simulation that shortcuts away several orders of magnitude compared to whatever it is meant to mimic.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#100

Post by rdevsrex »

I think in some sense probably not. I can't imagine an industrial civilization before us, as there would have been fewer fossil fuels in the ground than we initially found.

But that assumes every intelligence operates like our own. Heck you even see that with the difference in worldview that Westerners and indigenous people have. That's why I can imagine a species that chose to focus its energies on other things than resource extraction and industrialization. It's not a bad path for us to consider.

It is an interesting thought exercise though.

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