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Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

nautil.us

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Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#61

Post by xoa »

hoten wrote: post #48
xoa wrote: post #31

A civilization that got to "industrial" but didn't make it to the nuclear and particularly space age certainly seems like it could leave little trace over long periods depending on how the cards fell. However, if nothing else our civilization has made a habit of disposing of geosync satellites past their life time into super synchronous graveyard orbits that will last a really long time. At the rate things are going…

If we weren't already tracking those decommissioned satellites, would we know they were there?

Yes. Everything in orbit above an extremely small size is tracked. Very important for navigation. And satellites themselves are lenty large enough to be visible with a relatively basic telescope so in that respect actually I was probably too conservative, early astronomers would see them although it would take longer to realize they were artificial, but still long, long before space age. And know there were artificial objects up there would probably change history late 1800s.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#62

Post by birriel »

1270018080 wrote: post #15

Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

IIRC, the Wikipedia article for Betteridge's law stated that, statistically, headlines in the form of a question were more often answered with a "yes."

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#63

Post by jamiek88 »

NavinF wrote: post #58
roseway4 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the Wikipedia article mentions, we’ve already done just this with the JWST…

Naw the JWST won't stay there after it loses power. > The points L1, L2, and L3 are positions of unstable equilibrium. Any object orbiting at L1, L2, or L3 will tend to fall out of orbit; it is therefore rare to find natural objects there, and spacecraft inhabiting these areas must employ a small but critical amount of station keeping in order to maintain their position.

Nothing will. The Lagrange points are only quasi stable.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#64

Post by dheera »

hooande wrote: post #38
DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

This assumes that their technology would be similar to ours. They could have used biological mechanical parts, made from plant or animal material. They could have had radically different theories of mechanics or construction that better fit the state of the planet at their time. In general the statement "They couldn't have been civilized because they aren't exactly like us" limits what we look for and how we look for…

Maybe, but on a planet that's full of rocks one would think they would have at least organized a FEW of the rocks into structures of sorts.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#65

Post by BMc2020 »

Ctrl F Silurian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silurian_hypothesis

The Silurian hypothesis is a thought experiment which assesses modern science's ability to detect evidence of a prior advanced civilization, perhaps several million years ago. The most probable cues for such a civilization could be carbon, radioactive elements or temperature variation. The name "Silurian" derives from the eponymous sapient species from the BBC science fiction series Doctor Who, who in the series established an advanced civilization prior to humanity.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#66

Post by marginalia_nu »

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

To be fair, there are entire human civilizations we know have existed that we barely have archeological evidence to make sense of. We know they had language, culture, technology and we've found shells, bones and rubble.

That, and the fact that we've found one antiktythera mechanism and nothing like it before or since raises questions. It seems implausible for a culture to produce a singular advanced mechanical computer with no precursors and then stop and never make anything like it again.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#67

Post by tarikjn »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #53
tarikjn wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works with manufacturing, I don’t think it’s silly. Precision is not just a function of time available, manpower and talent, but also tooling technology. Manufacturing a single replica with today’s technology is believed to be challenging — and has not been attempted yet — but hopefully someone will take the challenge soon. There are no serious claims that these can be made with known ancient technolog…

This is not modern precision manufacturing and metrology, it's abrasively grinding down rock that's been roughly shaped. It's tedious as all hell, but well within the toolbox for ancient Egyptians (not to mention many other societies). There are a lot of options to do the rough shaping. Egyptians are known to have used abrasive drills for some artifacts, but other cultures often used rocks of the same or greater hard…

The rough shaping is not at issue. The challenge is maintaining tolerances along all axis and constraints on your detail work while using high forces and pressures to work the hard material. Grinding is a good guess for the possible material removal process — and it is up there today for the smallest tolerances using a mechanical process —- watch a video of a jig grinder in action. But what tool is used to hold or insert the sand aggregate at the pressure point? Are you suggesting that the vase is turned? That turning tool would need precise bearings itself to maintain that precision. According to archeologists, Egyptian didn’t even have the invention of the wheel yet at this point. These are all questions that people are looking for answers, and the best way will be to attempt to reproduce an artifact using various methods. I sincerely invite you to contribute by trying to elaborate the entire process that would enable this.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#68

Post by mc32 »

DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

It's one of those "prove a negative" but with the enthusiasm of flat-earthers. Is it technically possible there could have been an isolated population that evolved and emerged and then got engulfed by a supervolcano or was taken under by a sudden asteroid impact or ... and all traces erased? We can think and work out such scenarios, but they are not likely at all.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#69

Post by mc32 »

getmeinrn wrote: post #29
DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

Random thought, but if we extrapolate the path we're on in terms of biodegradability and sustainability, it's not ridiculous to assume that a very advanced version of us would have developed the technology and legislation to ensure that all products biodegrade safely within X years.

And retroactively apply that technology to all the previous garbage they produced and their predecessors produced too?

Sounds like they invented the magic wand.

Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?

#70

Post by tyg13 »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #66
DannyB2 wrote: post #4

If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…

To be fair, there are entire human civilizations we know have existed that we barely have archeological evidence to make sense of. We know they had language, culture, technology and we've found shells, bones and rubble. That, and the fact that we've found one antiktythera mechanism and nothing like it before or since raises questions. It seems implausible for a culture to produce a singular advanced mechanical comput…

To the contrary: the fact that only one ever was found, to me, suggests that it was the work of one brilliant mind whose work was not understood or continued by their culture.
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