A civilization that got to "industrial" but didn't make it to the nuclear and particularly space age certainly seems like it could leave little trace over long periods depending on how the cards fell. However, if nothing else our civilization has made a habit of disposing of geosync satellites past their life time into super synchronous graveyard orbits that will last a really long time. At the rate things are going there is also reasonable chance we'll have a much more significant presence on the moon at least before any complete implosion seems probable (if we get eaten by AI that doesn't spell the end of development so doesn't count by itself, the AI would then have to also implode or leave no trace for new biological life to arise). Any sort of lunar base would also likely stick around a very long time at this point with the heavy solar bombardment no longer taking place. Granted, a new civilization would have to itself get quite a ways along to notice these artifacts and what they were if everything on Earth was gone.
Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
31–40 of 282 posts
Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
#32If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…
Not pre-human but challenging the understood modern human timeline of industrialisation — We have not found the tools, but we may have found the products; in the form of stone-based vases that archeologists attribute to the Early Egyptian Period but are believed to be from much earlier, and would have required tools that have not been discovered yet. The channel UnchartedX make a compelling argument about this hypoth…
You were assuming that their industrial civilization would look anything like ours. Why do they need nuts and bolts? Why couldn’t they have use some natural form of biodegradable materials?
Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
I figure that any industrialized civilization would have left indirect evidence of itself by mucking up the fossil record with introduced species. We intentionally and unintentionally introduce plants and animals far outside their natural range. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange You would see some species inexplicably take on a worldwide distribution, or see species suddenly turn up on far away landm…
How many introduced species are there as a percentage of all existing species? This seems like an important number to calculate the probability that we might have missed such an introduced species given the fossil record we have. It could also be that introduced species are less likely to be found in the fossil record for whatever reason. Then again, maybe we have found such a thing but haven't recognized it for what…
That’s a good point, and I don’t have an answer. In my mind I was thinking of more obvious examples, like camels being introduced to Australia. Or cichlids from Lake Victoria being introduced into isolated lakes in North America. The idea being that you would notice some very obvious out-of-place fossils.
I also assume that these species, often invasive, would outlast the civilizations that introduced them. So you could probably also infer some of this by looking at descendant populations.
Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
#34If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…
Random thought, but if we extrapolate the path we're on in terms of biodegradability and sustainability, it's not ridiculous to assume that a very advanced version of us would have developed the technology and legislation to ensure that all products biodegrade safely within X years.
This doesn't undo all the stuff that already is in the ground and rivers everywhere.
Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
#35If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…
Not pre-human but challenging the understood modern human timeline of industrialisation — We have not found the tools, but we may have found the products; in the form of stone-based vases that archeologists attribute to the Early Egyptian Period but are believed to be from much earlier, and would have required tools that have not been discovered yet. The channel UnchartedX make a compelling argument about this hypoth…
What a silly video. The argument he's making is called a unilinear teleology. History is not an arrow-line march from less advanced to more advanced, and it's incredibly common for the apparent workmanship of artifacts to "regress" as styles and intentions change over time. Just look at all the people who complain about modern art because "classical takes more skill".
Also, there's essentially nothing you can't do with stone given primitive tools, sand, and a shitload of talent/time. One thing about ancient people is that they had all of these in abundance. Making arguments from the position of "they couldn't have done this with the tools they had" is almost always wrong because it's coming from a modern perspective of how tedious and uneconomical it'd be to do it today.
Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not pre-human but challenging the understood modern human timeline of industrialisation — We have not found the tools, but we may have found the products; in the form of stone-based vases that archeologists attribute to the Early Egyptian Period but are believed to be from much earlier, and would have required tools that have not been discovered yet. The channel UnchartedX make a compelling argument about this hypoth…
Pre-history is tough. Outside of written accounts and a few major cities cited in particular environments - there isn’t a lot of evidence about what humans were doing for 100k years before the Roman/Chinese empires formed. Even Egyptian history is pretty spotty. We know there were civilizations in North America such as the Mississippi River valley mound builders - but our knowledge tops out at “they existed”. It woul…
Maybe we should look off planet, look to the Lagrange points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point
We might find some old equipment from an elder spacefaring species. If we don't find anything, maybe we should leave some human monuments out there so the next civilization can know about us.
Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
#37If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…
One hundred million years is a long time for a screwdriver.
Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
#38If there were an industrial civilization here before us (modern humans) then it would be astonishing that in all of the fossils we have discovered, we've never yet discovered a single ancient nut, bolt, screwdriver, wrench, etc. Not one single wire or cast metal part. As per the article, that civilization would have to predate all of the vast history of evolution that we know of. Wouldn't some higher life forms from…
This assumes that their technology would be similar to ours. They could have used biological mechanical parts, made from plant or animal material. They could have had radically different theories of mechanics or construction that better fit the state of the planet at their time.
In general the statement "They couldn't have been civilized because they aren't exactly like us" limits what we look for and how we look for it.
Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
#39[deleted]
Re: Could an industrial civilization have predated humans on Earth?
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pre-history is tough. Outside of written accounts and a few major cities cited in particular environments - there isn’t a lot of evidence about what humans were doing for 100k years before the Roman/Chinese empires formed. Even Egyptian history is pretty spotty. We know there were civilizations in North America such as the Mississippi River valley mound builders - but our knowledge tops out at “they existed”. It woul…
Maybe we should look off planet, look to the Lagrange points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point We might find some old equipment from an elder spacefaring species. If we don't find anything, maybe we should leave some human monuments out there so the next civilization can know about us.
As the Wikipedia article mentions, we’ve already done just this with the JWST…