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Defecting from North Korea is now harder

nytimes.com

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Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#91

That was harrowing. There were a couple things I didn't understand: 1. What changed about China's surveillance systems or procedures to make them ~20x more effective at catching refugees in a couple years? 2. There's a bit about how North Korean refugees can apply for asylum in South Korea. I was under the impression (from Barbara Demick's book Nothing to Envy ) that all North Koreans are more or less granted asylum…

> What changed about China's surveillance systems

In the last few years, I don't think anything substantial. IMO new difficulty (post zero covid) was due to massive human trafficking crackdown after the "chained woman" uproar in PRC. Don't forget some of these people are "rescued" by human traffickers / organized crime that sold them to sex work in first place. There's also geopolitical layer of these defections being run by Durihana, South Korean NGOs (double whammy of foreign + religious), conducting operations on mainland soil without PRC assent - there's no reason to allow these operations in the first place.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#92

Wow, that was absolutely harrowing. Easily the most emotionally powerful thing I've read in the NYTimes (or any other major newspaper) in a while. It really puts into perspective just how horrible the conditions are for these people; it's easy to hear about NK in the news, or hear about defectors, and think little of it except for "what a shame", but this really puts into context the sheer inhumanity of the situation…

The horror of when humans are seen as a renewable natural resource.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#93

That was harrowing. There were a couple things I didn't understand: 1. What changed about China's surveillance systems or procedures to make them ~20x more effective at catching refugees in a couple years? 2. There's a bit about how North Korean refugees can apply for asylum in South Korea. I was under the impression (from Barbara Demick's book Nothing to Envy ) that all North Koreans are more or less granted asylum…

I don't think the surveillance system got much more sophisticated but for anyone wondering what china's surveillance system was like before the pandemic, I stayed in China three times for a total of about a month and a half in the 6 months before the pandemic.

When you get to the airport, you will likely notice the abundance of cameras, including paths which take you right under overhead cameras. Your photo will be taken at the airport border control and your visa will be stamped. You will get an entry card you must fill in before leaving china and present alongside your passport. This card details the hotel you will be staying at. If I recall correctly you also had to provide these details on the visa application form, as well as a recent photo.

When riding in a car, cameras on all major roads will periodically take photos of the front of every car every few hundred meters, accompanied with a literal flash.

Once you arrive at your hotel, you will be greeted with yet another camera, you will be required to check in your passport and have your photo taken. This system, I believe, is a government integrated system as between all the hotels I visited, they seemed to have a very similar computer with a similarly mounted camera.

If you plan to travel between cities, you will need your passport to buy the ticket. Once on the bus to a different city, it's possible someone at some checkpoint will abruptly enter the bus with a hand-held camera to videotape everyone's faces.

In large cities, especially the bigger ones, cameras are everywhere, there's cameras on top of cameras pointing at other cameras. Comedic cartoons of surveillance don't do it justice.

When using the metro (underground) transportation systems you will again be passing through gates with overhead cameras pointed at your face. Presumably to match up the chip-coins (or whatever the particular metro system of the city you're in uses) with routes taken and map these to photos of your face.

If you plan on taking a taxi, expect to have to use didi or something equivalent, didi doesn't take payments via bank cards, didi takes payments via wechat or alipay. To get wechat working as a foreigner in china, you must find Chinese people who will vouch for you to activate your account (let's hope you can chat up some people in a bar to help you with this feat). To get alipay working in china, you need a chinese bank account, unless you're extremely lucky and manage to get it working without one (I managed once out of my three trips). I'm pretty sure both alipay and wechat are tightly integrated into the chinese surveillance system.

I'm pretty sure the information which gets collected would be useless if it also didn't get dumped in a centralised system and processed collectively, so I'm pretty sure there is some centralised system with complex processing.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#94
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with any news, you take it with a pinch of salt. Nothing new here. Are there particular things in this report which you don't agree with, or consider suspicious, or know that it's an outright lie?

This article could have come straight from a fiction book. There is no evidence for anything that is being presented. It might be true, it might not be. I'm not arguing they are lying or not, I'm just saying that we shouldn't blindly believe it. But watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUMZS-ZegM made me a little bit skeptical about those defector stories. It's a very good watch, and I guess it doesn'…

I think understand where you're coming from - people can tell whatever they want, and the media definitely loves to run stories like this. These stories are both popular and the diplomatic risk is also low. And we also have the accounts of Yeonmi Park.

On the other hand, there's no reason to doubt the story too much. NyT's stories are generally highly factual, even though their primary bias is left-center. And we know that NK is a hellhole, not just from defectors, as the "Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul" video states, but from a myriad of other, independent sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeonmi_Park#Veracity_of_claims

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#96

That was harrowing. There were a couple things I didn't understand: 1. What changed about China's surveillance systems or procedures to make them ~20x more effective at catching refugees in a couple years? 2. There's a bit about how North Korean refugees can apply for asylum in South Korea. I was under the impression (from Barbara Demick's book Nothing to Envy ) that all North Koreans are more or less granted asylum…

Just read Nothing to Envy myself and one important point is that that work is from almost two decades ago at this point. With the advent of computerized surveillance, it is understandable that the difficulty has increased. A country such as China, it’s probably quite easy for the surveillance systems to loop in a human any time that an unknown face crops up. Paired with the pronounced physical and cultural differences between North Koreans and an other people in the world, it’s probably easy to guess when someone is attempting to escape from NK.

Does anyone have book recommendations for modern insight into NK? I have been reading about the country much more in recent weeks.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#97
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. The article briefly discusses the impact of COVID, highlighting China's implementation of supplementary measures and limitations during this period. It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts. However, as the article states it can also be used for malicious exploitation. 2. If your question is about why they go to Thailand instead of…

>It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts. Any evidence for that? Actually, any evidence that contact tracing has actually had any benefits wherever it has been tried? I'm sure it helps at very, very early stages of a pandemic, and even then depending on which virus we are trying to trace... But I'd like to see actual proof that it hel…

I think monkey pox was mostly contained through contact tracing and then vaccinating those who were potentially exposed.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#98

Wow, that was absolutely harrowing. Easily the most emotionally powerful thing I've read in the NYTimes (or any other major newspaper) in a while. It really puts into perspective just how horrible the conditions are for these people; it's easy to hear about NK in the news, or hear about defectors, and think little of it except for "what a shame", but this really puts into context the sheer inhumanity of the situation…

The Chinese government is beyond complicit. It’s active policy to find and capture these people, then send them back to NK. That’s why satellite countries are even intimidated into sending them back.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Yeonmi Park interview on Joe Rogan is FN nuts ; https://open.spotify.com/episode/0G5o6GYjWgbSvKG3W2W2xO https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+rogan+north...

Ms Park has gone from tragic and respected refugee, to fullout lunatic being caught in all kind of lies. I feel genuinely sad for her. Find the early interviews with her, without the plastic surgery (mentioning this because of timeline, not for judgement). You will see a different person.

WOW I had no idea - after the first interview, I didnt follow her in any regard... so I had no idea...

But - I did have a secret thought when I first saw the interview on Rogan, that the reason she was largely given credence and airtime was her atractive looks...

Based on your comment, she might be a demented sociopath along the same ilk as Elizabeth Holmes. (who thought getting pregnant would keep her out of prison)

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contact tracing (contact investigation, etc.) is a standard practice in public health. In tuberculosis control where I got my start, it's what we do for any active case of TB we identify - we find the people who may have been exposed and widen the circle as necessary. It's also critical for STDs. The only difference with COVID was the scale, not the methodology. There is an argument that if the disease is everywhere,…

I agree but do we use mass tracking for stuff like tuberculosis and STDs? And agreed also that my point is probably more true for COVID than anything else. The scale of COVID is such that it automatically requires mass tracking to even consider contact tracing, but I guess my argument was that even then we should have evidence that such massive tracking improves contact tracing for very infectious viruses like COVID.…

I live in Québec. We never had mass tracking - this was FUD about the app, which did NOT share data... and that level of privacy protection is also why it was difficult to prove its positive impact.

What we did have was public health which sometimes managed to call people after a positive result - to warn their contacts, so they don't infect others in turn. This is absolutely standard for public health for many illnesses, and helps reduce contagion.

Neither of those is mass tracking. Public health doesn't report you if you went to see prostitutes or used illegal drugs; their job is to stop chains of transmission, and contact the people you were around. That's true for TB as mentioned, as well as smallpox, Ebola, etc

Anyways, since you're in Québec you might be interested in this figure, selecting the 0-49 demographic. Public health isn't telling us about this, or simple methods to reduce risk. Hell, HEPA filters are still near impossible to install in schools.

https://statistique.quebec.ca/fr/document/surmortalite-hebdo...

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