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Defecting from North Korea is now harder

nytimes.com

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Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#61

Post by CodeMage »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #31
phatskat wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An argument I’ve seen is that we haven’t seen a truly communist country yet. The most promising ones (imo) were smaller countries who’s communist ambitions were stifled by American-backed coups. Many of the earlier communist leaders like Lenin and Mao also knew that their countries weren’t communist in practice, as you can’t slip a switch and suddenly you have working communism. Their goals were to establish governme…

Oh yeah, the old and tired argument that we haven't seen "true communism". I'm still waiting for it but till then, the ideology can be deemed invalid. I wonder if people that give this argument realize that they sound like religious cultists saying we haven't reached the true promise land...let's push harder! (despite all evidence being against them).

It's just as old and tired as the defense of capitalism: "That's not capitalism, that's corporatism (or cronyism or anything other than capitalism)."

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#64

Post by mardifoufs »

BoxFour wrote: post #32
karaterobot wrote: post #23

That was harrowing. There were a couple things I didn't understand: 1. What changed about China's surveillance systems or procedures to make them ~20x more effective at catching refugees in a couple years? 2. There's a bit about how North Korean refugees can apply for asylum in South Korea. I was under the impression (from Barbara Demick's book Nothing to Envy ) that all North Koreans are more or less granted asylum…

1. The article briefly discusses the impact of COVID, highlighting China's implementation of supplementary measures and limitations during this period. It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts. However, as the article states it can also be used for malicious exploitation. 2. If your question is about why they go to Thailand instead of…

>It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts.

Any evidence for that? Actually, any evidence that contact tracing has actually had any benefits wherever it has been tried? I'm sure it helps at very, very early stages of a pandemic, and even then depending on which virus we are trying to trace... But I'd like to see actual proof that it helps for pandemics like COVID.

Otherwise it is such an easy way to implement mass surveillance, that requiring very very thorough proof that it actually helps is the bare minimum. This story is proof of that.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#65

Post by dang »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #29

[flagged]

Please don't take HN threads into ideological (or nationalistic) battle and especially please don't use HN primarily for such purposes. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html:

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents."

"Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity."

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#66

Post by CrampusDestrus »

karaterobot wrote: post #23

That was harrowing. There were a couple things I didn't understand: 1. What changed about China's surveillance systems or procedures to make them ~20x more effective at catching refugees in a couple years? 2. There's a bit about how North Korean refugees can apply for asylum in South Korea. I was under the impression (from Barbara Demick's book Nothing to Envy ) that all North Koreans are more or less granted asylum…

If NK has a relatively recent and relatively good quality photo of you (national ID card) they can just share it with the CCP and run it through their massive CCTV surveillance network

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#67

Post by dang »

waffleiron wrote: post #58
dang wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please not use HN primarily for political and ideological battle? Your account is showing a clear pattern of that already, and we have to ban such accounts. Lots of past explanation at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... . Also, please don't cross into personal attack. We ban accounts that do that as well. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html an…

Dang, the post this person is replying to is starting an ideological battle.

Ok, I've replied there too.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#68

Post by mardifoufs »

tensor wrote: post #60
fndex wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. I would definitely not like to live or even visit there. I just think that every story has 2 sides, and we don't hear the other side very often.

I absolutely despise this "every story has two sides" quip. No, every story doesn't have two sides. Yes, every story has multiple versions full of complete bullshit, but when we talk about a "side" we mean a reputable reliable side, and it is not the case that every story has two equally debatable and reputable sides. Sometimes a spade is a spade.

Reputable, reliable (tm) American sources also led to a million deaths in Iraq based on what turned out to be false premises. Yet your very own logic would've called "a spade a spade" and would've meant actually believing Iraq had usable WMDs because I mean, that's just the hard truth! Every reliable source on your side said so! Who would even believe Iraqi/arabic media that shouted for a year that Iraq didn't have them, over prestigious and western institutions like the NYT!

I have absolutely no doubt that North Korea is hell in earth, but there is a very very very good reason to say that every story has two sides. But maybe you just haven't experienced being the victim of "the reputable side" lying without any consequences. As a Muslim that grew up during the war on terror, I can't really say the same.

Re: Defecting from North Korea is now harder

#70

Post by puchatek »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #29

[flagged]

I've always been critical of the US, especially their foreign policy but if I had to make a choice I also would prefer that they be in charge rather than either of the other two. Or rather that would have been my answer before trump came along and the country entered into a state of hyperpolarization. How would I now wish for times like the G.W. Bush era where one would rightly get upset about things like the Iraqi war, US policing the world etc. As Europeans we were rarely a target of these things. The stakes were ultimately low for us. But now it's not clear anymore what will become of that country. And if the US ends up collapsing under its own weight, then I don't think we're headed for a bright future. And the stakes have never been higher.
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