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We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

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Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#261

Post by jeroenhd »

figassis wrote: post #249
jay_kyburz wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want a fair comparison with Apple laptops, you should compare them to Windows Surface laptops.

I moved off of windows long before surfaces, not going back. Funny story, a few months ago we needed to setup an office windows 11 laptop (as part of a software project). It used to be you could just boot the machine, cleanup bloatware, install some antivirus (after figuring out which one has not currently become adware), install basic applications, a copy of office, configure an email client or outlook (which is a n…

Windows needs a Microsoft account, and that sucks. I completely agree with you on that. The ridiculous workarounds you need to go through to set up Windows can only be described as what you get when you fire your testers for a telemetry collection algorithm. On the other hand, I've never seen someone complain about Android/iOS/macOS requiring an online account, so I can see why Microsoft is so blind to criticism in this regard.

That said, the bloatware on professional laptops is absolutely minimal. They do this nasty trick where they add Candy Crush to your start menu, but it's not even installed until you click on it. If you buy Windows Pro (the one you probably want anyway) you won't see this crap.

As for the antivirus and Outlook: don't treat modern Windows like Windows XP. Windows Defender and a fully usable Outlook suite have been part of Windows for well over a decade now. You can install Outlook if you really want to, but it's really not necessary. I'll even go as far as say that Outlook Express and its evolutions were also working just fine all the way back in the XP days.

All the machines I've seen ship with Windows 11 have come with Office preinstalled (with a trial, because Microsoft is a wallet leech) so I'm surprised you even needed to install a copy. I consider it bloatware myself because of the subscription model attached to it.

Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#262

Post by jeroenhd »

manicennui wrote: post #177
jeroenhd wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they just wanted a quick fix, not spend $$$. > Then I bought macs for everyone I bet you would've gotten similar results if you spent the same amount of money on Windows computers. For example, my dad is using an 8 year old Windows computer that he got second hand. It works absolutely fine because it wasn't underspecced at the time it was produced. People underestimate the difference investing in good hardware make…

Who exactly sells Windows machines with good hardware?

My HP laptop came with little more than a driver update utility and an icon with HP support in the task bar. That was all the way back when stuff came out with Windows 8.1.

My Lenovo laptop also came with nothing but the necessities to keep my laptop up to date. They added some "click to install" shortcuts for games and crap to the start menu, but they don't come with computers anymore.

The trick to buying a clean machine is to buy hardware intended for professionals rather than consumers. I don't think I've ever seen a machine running Windows 11 Pro that came with a McAfee trial since Windows 10 came out.

Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#263

Post by jeroenhd »

figassis wrote: post #241
jeroenhd wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they just wanted a quick fix, not spend $$$. > Then I bought macs for everyone I bet you would've gotten similar results if you spent the same amount of money on Windows computers. For example, my dad is using an 8 year old Windows computer that he got second hand. It works absolutely fine because it wasn't underspecced at the time it was produced. People underestimate the difference investing in good hardware make…

I would not. I never bought laptops under $1000. I know what to buy and I'd almost always customize specs for the person that needed it (spend more on ram, graphics, cpu, cooling for my architect sibling). Still, 3 year expiration. Starts with fragmentation (you end up having to defrag more and more frequently), every app you install makes the system less stable (messes up the registry, add/removes some random and cr…

Your experiences sound like they were based on Windows 7. Defragmentation hasn't been an issue in at least a decade unless you bought real cheap hardware.

The DLL issues bring back memories of Windows XP and Vista, even Windows 7 had SFC and other proactive system protection mechanisms.

Windows 10 came out with a task manager that shows you exactly what's slowing down startup. I don't know what hardware you bought, but BSODs have become so rare that I don't even remember what Windows 11's BSOD screen looks like, and I'm pretty sure Windows 10's changed since I last saw it.

From what you're describing, I doubt your experiences were with modern releases of Windows.

Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#264

Post by jeroenhd »

kortilla wrote: post #174
jeroenhd wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they just wanted a quick fix, not spend $$$. > Then I bought macs for everyone I bet you would've gotten similar results if you spent the same amount of money on Windows computers. For example, my dad is using an 8 year old Windows computer that he got second hand. It works absolutely fine because it wasn't underspecced at the time it was produced. People underestimate the difference investing in good hardware make…

This is incorrect. I had the same issue supporting my family members on good hardware with windows. It was just too common that software updates broke things, random adware would get installed when they clicked on things, etc. This was windows vista/7 era and when I made them switch to macOS the problems just went away. I think apple seems to be better about making it so non power users can’t accidentally mess things…

Vista/7 was definitely an era filled with questionable choices from both Microsoft and computer manufacturers. Vista was plainly unfinished when it came out (and driver vendors put in 0 effort to update their drivers for a completely revamped driver architecture). 7 was basically what Vista should've been and it was very solid on hardware designed to run it (on hardware released for Vista or even XP, you were still stuck with the terrible drivers from the Vista era).

The instability and bloat have changed significantly in the 17 years since Vista came out. The Windows kernel itself is rock solid, most drivers run in user mode so BSODs are extremely rare.

There is bloatware, for Windows and for macOS, for all the terrible hardware vendors out there. I remember plugging in my Logitech mouse into a Mac and finding out I need a separate app to configure it properly because various OS mouse settings only apply to Apple hardware for some reason. Printers Just Work these days, unless you buy one of those awful models that requires an app to set up, and then it doesn't matter what desktop OS you use.

Microsoft did add ridiculous Microsoft ads and a scummy account requirement to Windows 10 and 11. However, these aren't visible for most users, because most users are already logged in to a Microsoft account. When people talk about "ads" in Windows, they don't mean banner ads, they mean "click here to connect to Microsoft Onedrive with your MS account", not too different from various iCloud related menus I've seen.

The way they mess with Edge, that is plain awful. I'm astonished with how much effort Microsoft is putting into shoving Edge down everyone's throats. Edge is the biggest reason not to use Windows in existence.

I'm not sure what you mean by "changing stuff in the start menu" so I can't comment on that. However, I'd recommend trying out a Windows VM some time (you can download them from the MS website for free!), because I get the feeling your experiences with Windows are quite outdated.

Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#265

Post by jeroenhd »

Etheryte wrote: post #170
jeroenhd wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they just wanted a quick fix, not spend $$$. > Then I bought macs for everyone I bet you would've gotten similar results if you spent the same amount of money on Windows computers. For example, my dad is using an 8 year old Windows computer that he got second hand. It works absolutely fine because it wasn't underspecced at the time it was produced. People underestimate the difference investing in good hardware make…

The question in my opinion is not really about specs — no matter how much you spend on your hardware, you can't, pardon my French, take the shitbox out of Windows. Device manager and registry still being a thing, reboots to install software, ads in the start menu, etc are a good example of how Windows is not a system for human users. It's amazing how much backwards compatibility they've offered over the decades, yes,…

Of course Device Manager and the registry are still a thing. They're part of the operating system. You never need to interact with them unless you try to install some atrocious software or hardware onto your computer, but they're there.

I personally find that Linux asks me to reboot more often than Windows does these days. You do need to reboot once or twice a month to apply some kernel updates, but that's really about all you need to do.

The shortcuts to install apps like Tiktok are annoying for sure, but they're really not as intrusive as techies like to pretend they are. I have plenty of gripes with Windows (Edge, MS accounts, that kind of thing) but calling it "not a system for human users" is ridiculous.

Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#266

Post by figassis »

the_overseer wrote: post #259
figassis wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not. I never bought laptops under $1000. I know what to buy and I'd almost always customize specs for the person that needed it (spend more on ram, graphics, cpu, cooling for my architect sibling). Still, 3 year expiration. Starts with fragmentation (you end up having to defrag more and more frequently), every app you install makes the system less stable (messes up the registry, add/removes some random and cr…

Defrag in 2023? On a SSD? Really?

I moved off of windows a while ago, last windows I seriously worked on was 7. When the metro stuff started coming around I was on my way out. I never really used 10 (did that exist, was it skipped?) or 11, only set it up for others, very quickly so I didn't have to spend any more time on it, and the dark patterns regarding online accounts as well as the start menu ads just reassured me I'd made the right decision.

Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#267

Post by jeroenhd »

Miraste wrote: post #251
jeroenhd wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macbooks had absolutely atrocious performance once the CPU heated up, masked by turboing extremely quickly to make short bursts of performance feel responsive. This was made worse by Apple's absolutely terrible cooling design. Their user-hostile form-over-function designs are also typically Apple. They made great devices for quick demos, but terrible professional workstations. I actually suspect Apple sabotaged their…

Intel deserves a lot of blame for the last few x86 MacBooks too. The TDPs on those i9s are completely imaginary. Out to lunch. If one were to, say, design a cooling system based on the specs and then receive a production sample that ran twice as hot at half the speed, one would have to do things like downclock it below a gigahertz to avoid burning the user's hands off. That entire generation of Intel chips was a tras…

Intel's cooling specs certainly aren't great, but Apple did mess with the power profiles a LOT. People also often misread the TDP numbers (it's for describing the thermal load of a certain performance threshold, NOT the maximum power output of the chip) and that doesn't help..

I completely agree that Intel's chips were consuming way more power than they had any right to, but Apple knew that when they were designing their computers, and they also had complete control over the performance characteristics, so they could've compensated (or picked more appropriate chips).

AMD's Ryzen was the proof that Intel's designs were flawed. I suspect that AMD's impressive Ryzen performance spooked Intel and they responded by making their existing designs faster by just pumping more power through them.

Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#268

Post by figassis »

jeroenhd wrote: post #261
figassis wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved off of windows long before surfaces, not going back. Funny story, a few months ago we needed to setup an office windows 11 laptop (as part of a software project). It used to be you could just boot the machine, cleanup bloatware, install some antivirus (after figuring out which one has not currently become adware), install basic applications, a copy of office, configure an email client or outlook (which is a n…

Windows needs a Microsoft account, and that sucks. I completely agree with you on that. The ridiculous workarounds you need to go through to set up Windows can only be described as what you get when you fire your testers for a telemetry collection algorithm. On the other hand, I've never seen someone complain about Android/iOS/macOS requiring an online account, so I can see why Microsoft is so blind to criticism in t…

I'm with you, but, there is no OSX pro. You buy a mac, you're done. My mother does not need a professional laptop, she needs a laptop. Why should people on paid non-professional laptops be actively sabotaged? Is this what professional should mean? What is the difference between a macbook, a macbook pro and a mac pro. You open them, everything is the same, except the pro models have more to offer in a way that is obvious to pros, and non pros (meaning non techies) wouldn't normally notice, it's not the non pro models that have to work against you to make you regret not forking out more.

Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#269

Post by tivert »

ilyt wrote: post #224
tivert wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, your banking app crashes sometimes and annoys you. How about you delete it and instead take a bus to a postal office to pay your bills this way - no annoying apps involved, it will just take 1h instead of 1m. Huh? Have ever actually paid a bill without using a computer? It doesn't work like you describe at all (unless you live in a really rural area or you're deliberately trying to make it difficult for yours…

The fuck is a "check" ? We don't have those here for decades.

> The fuck is a "check" ? We don't have those here for decades.

What's with the profanity? You obviously know what I'm talking about.

We have them in the US, and it's a wonderful technology that would apparently save globalreset an hour-long trip to the bank.

Re: We are wasting up to 20% of our time on computer problems, says study

#270

Post by nick-of-time »

mindvirus wrote: post #3

Those are rookie numbers. With a little Kubernetes, we can get them way up. So much of the incentive structure in software companies is to ship new features. Maintaining existing ones or fixing bugs is a career dead end for software engineers and managers. No wonder so much stuff is broken and slow. Call me cynical, but from a dollars point of view this seems to be what customers want.

> Call me cynical, but from a dollars point of view this seems to be what customers want.

Since when have the wants of customers been the driving factor behind business decisions? There is a downstream effect, sure, as long as there is competition, but businesses are controlled by petty little weirdos with short attention spans like Elon Musk.

Does this make me more or less cynical than you?

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