Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Nim Succession Plan

forum.nim-lang.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 44 posts

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#31

Post by planetis »

firesloth wrote: post #30
summerlight wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the point is that Nim's creator brought up seemingly unrelated, pointless rants on political matters against a genuinely organizational question? This is not exactly a civil discourse in any definitions, especially considering the context that Araq is supposed to be the most representative figure of the community.

Charitably reading his comment, I think he sees questions about a "foundation", "organization", etc as the thin edge of a wedge for people with political agendas. As a response to "Is there a Nim foundation?" it can be interpreted as "No, and there won't be, and this is why..." Having said that, I like Nim, but have advised against using it in important projects for exactly this issue: it has bus factor 1 (ref https:…

No it's not a bus factor of 1. Why would you think that? If you don't know why would you talk? There is at least another full time compiler dev. And a stream of contributors.

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#32

Post by planetis »

ElegantBeef wrote: post #23
planetis wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a contributor thanks for your worry but next time keep your virtue to yourself. I read his response multiple times and don't find anything wrong with it. Just an opinion. Worths as much as mine or yours.

As a contributor it is still an awful non sequitur that does not answer the question, and brings up a fantastical world.

Beef, I see Paris burning and I too would wish to live in a fantastical world. Reality's always in conflict with ideologies.

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#33

Post by planetis »

LexiMax wrote: post #28
ZoomZoomZoom wrote: post #20

It's not easy to sincerely empathize with the problems of other people, especially when you think these problems are very distant to your day to day life. In the current world, permeated by negative information, it is often hard to feel emotionally connected to everything that's happening. This situation becomes particularly problematic for highly focused, technically-inclined individuals who are engulfed by their wo…

> Don't rush to label people as toxic unless they are obviously being dicks to others. He used a question about project governance to rant about the "clownworld" we all supposedly inhabit - as well as labeling entire groups of people racist and sexist - apropos of absolutely nothing. Sorry, but I think people are well within their right to be put off of the project because of that kind of attitude.

What was the group of people he offended? I still don't know, but you seem to have figured it out. Likewise I have every right to be put off by the messages we hear from the US for the past month.

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#34

Post by planetis »

LexiMax wrote: post #17
grun3 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just look at what happened with the Rust foundation. It probably guides a lot of his rant.

That does not follow. Languages as large and successful as Python and as small and up-and-coming as Zig have had foundations for years, despite both having a primary lead developer and tastemaker. This rant really does come off as an embittered “I refuse to leave my project for future generations because I hate them.”

Again you're making this up. That's not what the message reads. It literally says the future of Nim is assured because there is both funding and people working on it. He says he doesn't want to partake in community building because ...stuff happened with the diversity mob. It turns out that they've been preaching acceptance while harassing people with different upbringing online.

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#35

Post by planetis »

summerlight wrote: post #24
planetis wrote: post #22

tldr: Nim's creator doesn't want to get involved in building a community. Araq is based af. This is known since a while. Despite the fact, a community has been created with all kinds of people participating. A rule we have is their opinion worths as much as ours. Sometimes we have political debades in #offtopic but generally everyone is civil and channels are moderated by a whole team of eager mods. Toxic commenters…

I guess the point is that Nim's creator brought up seemingly unrelated, pointless rants on political matters against a genuinely organizational question? This is not exactly a civil discourse in any definitions, especially considering the context that Araq is supposed to be the most representative figure of the community.

Well supposed to be in reality he's not. There are more popular devs that use nim. I suggest to look for reappearing names on the nim conferences.

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#36

Post by magnesiamilk »

polotics wrote: post #14

Big trap of internet posting: your worst day's post can become a defining statement. Clearly on the day Andreas posted this, he wasn't at his kindest. Nim's great and readable, the code will survive many such days I think.

not sure about "worst day" lol. The BDFL also wrote

https://forum.dlang.org/post/wzoecavcswedkiebcjft@forum.dlan...

https://forum.dlang.org/post/lhhxvlxfddxnreyfhbct@forum.dlan...

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#37

Post by firesloth »

planetis wrote: post #31
firesloth wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charitably reading his comment, I think he sees questions about a "foundation", "organization", etc as the thin edge of a wedge for people with political agendas. As a response to "Is there a Nim foundation?" it can be interpreted as "No, and there won't be, and this is why..." Having said that, I like Nim, but have advised against using it in important projects for exactly this issue: it has bus factor 1 (ref https:…

No it's not a bus factor of 1. Why would you think that? If you don't know why would you talk? There is at least another full time compiler dev. And a stream of contributors.

I believe it, but I'd be happy to be wrong. Here is my reasoning:

My concern is leadership, not technical ability per se. There are a number of people capable of maintaining Nim or advancing it (off the top of my head I can think of 6). The important question is, _will they?_ Has anyone involved made commitments about what they'd do? Has any such commitment been accepted by the rest of the community? Maybe I've missed such statements, but Araq's comment makes me think there just aren't any such plans.

If Araq is hit by a bus, what _will_ happen? I could think of a number of scenarios that seem _possible_ to me, some good, some bad, the problem is that I don't know which if any it would be. For example, maybe diverse contributors organize and take over the project, maybe just contributors from status take over, maybe it's forked repeatedly and the community fragments, maybe it putters along with just bug fixes, maybe it never sees another release, maybe Araq has it in his will that no one can ever use Nim again, etc.

Is there anyone we _know_ would take over for Araq? Do we have a a "Vicearaq"? If not, then I believe a bus factor of 1 is justified.

To be clear, I like Nim a lot and I introduce it to other devs given half a chance, but I don't feel comfortable betting other people's jobs on it at this time. Maybe it's just that Elm has made me wary of BDFLs and I should be less paranoid.

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#38

Post by firesloth »

firesloth wrote: post #37
planetis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not a bus factor of 1. Why would you think that? If you don't know why would you talk? There is at least another full time compiler dev. And a stream of contributors.

I believe it, but I'd be happy to be wrong. Here is my reasoning: My concern is leadership, not technical ability per se. There are a number of people capable of maintaining Nim or advancing it (off the top of my head I can think of 6). The important question is, _will they?_ Has anyone involved made commitments about what they'd do? Has any such commitment been accepted by the rest of the community? Maybe I've misse…

Typing that out is making me re-evaluate my position.

I made my judgement a few years ago, when the technical bus factor might have legitimately been 1, but there are a lot more people involved now, and some of them may have sufficient motivation to maintain Nim themselves rather than just move off of it ASAP. I'm still not sure exactly how it would shake out, but I think Nim would survive the absence of Araq, at least for a time.

Sorry for my earlier comment. I can't edit it anymore, but I will not make it again.

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#39

Post by foldr »

planetis wrote: post #33
LexiMax wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't rush to label people as toxic unless they are obviously being dicks to others. He used a question about project governance to rant about the "clownworld" we all supposedly inhabit - as well as labeling entire groups of people racist and sexist - apropos of absolutely nothing. Sorry, but I think people are well within their right to be put off of the project because of that kind of attitude.

What was the group of people he offended? I still don't know, but you seem to have figured it out. Likewise I have every right to be put off by the messages we hear from the US for the past month.

The comment you're replying to doesn't claim that any particular group of people was offended.

Re: Nim Succession Plan

#40

Post by ElegantBeef »

planetis wrote: post #32
ElegantBeef wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a contributor it is still an awful non sequitur that does not answer the question, and brings up a fantastical world.

Beef, I see Paris burning and I too would wish to live in a fantastical world. Reality's always in conflict with ideologies.

Ah, yes the French, people historically known for good protests. If only that somehow related to the conversation at hand.
Post reply on HN