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Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

bbc.com

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Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#541

Post by zeven7 »

btgeekboy wrote: post #220
accrual wrote: post #157

Here are a couple of quotes I pulled from the USCG press release: > "debris is consistent with a catastrophic implosion of the vessel" > "1600 feet (487 meters) from the wreck of the Titanic" > "it is a smooth bottom", "there is no wreckage of the Titanic in the area" > "size of the debris field is consistent with an implosion in the water column" > "there doesn't seem to be any connection between the noises and the…

Part of me has been wondering if the noises being heard might be an unexpected discovery of a military (Russian, Chinese, US) submarine operating in the general area. Don’t they submerge for long periods of time without comms?

The last time there were unexpected noises heard it turned out to be fish farts.

https://www.iflscience.com/for-15-years-sweden-thought-enemy...

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#542

Post by TaylorAlexander »

Certhas wrote: post #187

It is notable how much news-coverage this received (for understandable reasons [1]) relative to the almost simultaneous disaster in the Mediterranean [2], where a shipwreck killed hundreds of people. [1] What springs to mind: Dramatic search action well suited for live blog coverage; psychological impact of the idea of people stranded in a submarine for days; And of course the average person here is probably a lot cl…

I understand that it is difficult to speculate on why the news covers one subject or another, and certainly the other comments have a point about being trapped being scary, or people laughing at the misfortune of the powerful being good for clickbait.

I just want to say, another issue is that to be perfectly honest, we don't like to humanize migrants, nor do we want to examine our culpability in their misfortune and demise. We want to mine resources from foreign countries even if that means destabilizing their governments, but we absolutely do not want to deal with the people fleeing those places whether we had nothing to do with their misfortune or we were in some way complicit.

The misfortune of a few rich guys is much easier for us to process than the avoidable death of hundreds, which was reportedly ultimately caused by the European Coast Guard who attempted to tow the vessel and in doing so supposedly caused it to sink. [1]

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/16/world/europe/greece-migra...

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#543

Post by tremon »

bluescrn wrote: post #516
jl6 wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The contrasting coverage is IMHO largely due to the novelty of the situation, and nothing to do with any moral judgement on the victims. Tragically, migrant boat disasters are common.

It was also the 'ticking clock' factor of the limited oxygen, a countdown of a few days, giving hope for a heroic rescue. People can't survive for long in cold seas. By the time a migrant boat disaster makes the news, hopes of finding survivors may already have faded.

The Mediterranean Sea isn't particularly cold this time of year, are you confusing the locations of the two incidents?

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#544

Post by krisoft »

flir wrote: post #436
3ygun wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was interested by this comment and wanted to note a few things. The Titan is significantly smaller (in terms of length ~1/10th the size although obviously displacement is the real measure)[1][2]. And the depth of the implosion is about 4x deeper[1][3]. So there are things that could definitely affect the sound signature. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan_(S-42) [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_…

Yes, and as far as I can tell it's not even certain that what was picked up from the San Juan was an implosion. But on the other hand, the Polar Prince was sitting right on top of the Titan listening for pings, and apparently it didn't hear anything. I'm not suggesting anything nefarious, I'm just hoping someone who understands these things better than I do comes along.

Sound can bend in the ocean in weird ways.

The ocean is not a homogenous mass. As you go down you can measure temperature, pressure and salinity changes. These all individually and together affect the speed of sound in the water. Given the right circumstances a layer can form which bends the sound waves away from an observer. It is possible that they couldn’t hear the implosion precisely because they were on top of them. Perhaps they could have heard the implosion better if they were off to the side a few kilometers, or if they would have had a hydrophone dangling to the other side of the layer. More info on the layer. [1]

This perhaps also can explain why they routinely lost contact with the sub during dives. (And normalisation of deviance explains how they become okay with that. [2])

1: https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/sound01/backgrou...

2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#545

Post by hef19898 »

partiallypro wrote: post #529
nicce wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is less about the media but more about the response of officials. How many boats were send to look for a single submarine? All the way from the France? When they could have been sent to Mediterranean sea as well.

There wasn't really a discrepancy in response though, and if you are lost at sea and have nothing to hang onto...you aren't going to last long. I saw someone ask why the US didn't send ships to look for migrants, well...that's a 10-day ride across the Atlantic & Mediterranean. Even surrounding countries were sometimes hours away. The average human can't tread that long without a life jacket, the average is ~2-3 hours…

There are multiple reports, and investigations, into illegal push backs of migrant vessels by FRONTEX and, yes, the Greek Coast Guard and Navy. Enough for me to not cut them any slack anymore.

Regarding the US Navy, well, they do have a Fleet in the Mediterranean, it's not like they had to sail all the way from Pearl Harbour.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#546

Post by jjulius »

seattle_anon wrote: post #166

Stockton Rush (OceanGate's CEO) was known in the Seattle tech community [0] My understanding (very much not first hand) is that he was seen as an expert in the specific engineering disciplines necessary to safely build and operate deep sea submersibles like Titan. He was also apparently a father to members of the Seattle tech community, who are no doubt grieving at the moment. Please remember that, for some members o…

>... he was seen as an expert in the specific engineering disciplines necessary to safely build and operate deep sea submersibles like Titan.

And yet he called safety "pure waste"...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-21/titanic-t...

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#547

Post by mc32 »

bambax wrote: post #425
seattle_anon wrote: post #166

Stockton Rush (OceanGate's CEO) was known in the Seattle tech community [0] My understanding (very much not first hand) is that he was seen as an expert in the specific engineering disciplines necessary to safely build and operate deep sea submersibles like Titan. He was also apparently a father to members of the Seattle tech community, who are no doubt grieving at the moment. Please remember that, for some members o…

Good video. Some excerpts: "If you're not breaking things, you're not innovating. If you're operating in a known environment as most submersible manufacturers do, they don't break things." (8:49) "Our rule is we risk capital, we don't risk people." (9:56) "We used the same prepreg that's used on the 787." (11:15) And my favorite: "When you're outside the box, it's really hard to tell how far outside the box you reall…

The question are:

Why use novel vessels when tried and true work. Why did they have to try a carbon-fiber wrapped vessel? The bathysphere went all the way down to the Marianas trench --many decades ago. Why try something new in unforgiving environments?

Why fire an engineer after he started raising questions about safety?

It seems like there was a bit of a cavalier attitude that cost five people their lives.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#548

Post by cowmoo728 »

TrackerFF wrote: post #452
deanc wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone walk me through what would have happened, physically, to a human body in the moment this happened. I’m curious. Similar to wondering what happens to people in space.

At that depth, the pressure is quite intense - around 6000 psi. That means 6000 pounds pr square inch - that's almost a Ford F150 truck pr square inch, everywhere. And now imagine how many square inches the surface area of a human is - especially your upper torso where your lungs are located. The sub (hull) is made of a carbon fiber and titanium mix - and I'm not sure how that would react, if it buckles / collapses l…

depending on the failure type (shear, compression, tension) carbon fiber behaves differently. but when the fibers actually break it pops so quickly that it exceeds human perception.

real time view of tensile failure: https://youtu.be/gmMRPmEYWhU

high speed 10m fps view of tensile failure: https://youtu.be/OePpVwCvCZg

when compressed along an axis that's not properly reinforced by carbon fibers, it will just disintegrate: https://youtu.be/BaSXRoD2xaQ?t=61

another interesting example of rapid failure: https://youtu.be/DM6J-yw8yjA?t=226

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#550

Post by bilekas »

nicce wrote: post #481
crazygringo wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand? To a layman like myself, tracking is part of communications and it seemed clear there was no tracking because they didn't know where the sub was. What is the specific type of tracking device you're referring to? What signals does it emit? And if overall power was lost, for example, why wouldn't the tracking stop just like communications stopped?

Both will be lost at the same time. We don't really know such signal. Submarines cannot communicate more hundred meters in the bottom of sea. Sea water absorbs the signal quite well. When the signal is lost, the expectation is that the submarine is under the water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

> When the signal is lost, the expectation is that the submarine is under the water.

Yes! This is true, I would just like to clarify that there is a difference between 'coms' and 'transponder' here. Some friends of mine conflate the two and think they are almost on the same 'circuit'.

In most cases of the Sub (specifically military because there are not many tourist subs), you don't WANT to be located unless in an emergency, whereas here in this situation you most certainly do and in that case you can be located by way of the transponder.

Th

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