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Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

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Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#961
post #864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not saying I'd trust my life to a gamepad alone I’d trust it to an Xbox, PlayStation controller, they’re some of the most reliability tested input devices ever. Most people are freaking out because it’s some known glitchy budget gamepad.

My playstation controller of less than a year old has stick drift so ymmv and you definately need backups. N=1 ofcourse but it's not that rare.

PS1 PS2 PS3 PS4 PS5 had two controllers each system, no drift or weirdness.

Yeah someone must have it but we’re talking most of my life here no issues, I’d trust these controllers.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#962

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's wild to me that you write "As I get older, I see this sentiment as very naive." And then go on to say some breathtakingly naive things. A lot of ocean activity is thoroughly regulated. For example: https://www.imo.org/en/About/Conventions/Pages/International... Moreover, It's not like they're getting paid in sand dollars or doubloons from the bottom of the sea. The passengers are signing contracts and paying lar…

Pushing regulation back to the point where someone dies, causes these problems in the first place. It's not hard to certify vehicles before use. We do it with cars on a daily basis. Measuring the necessity for regulation "in blood" is unbelievably cruel.

It's actually really hard to certify vehicles before use when they're novel vehicles. Try reading vehicle safety standards if you want proof of how complex it gets.

Good regulation balances the need for innovation vs the need for public health and safety. We can argue about the right balancing point all day, and people certainly will. But there's no simple solution on either side.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#963

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably aren't allowed to put this in the water of any country that has watercraft rules. The reporter from CBS reads the form he had to sign, at 2:40 in this video: https://youtu.be/29co_Hksk6o It says something like "this experimental craft has not been certified by any regulatory body". They probably have to be in international waters to put it in water.

It's entirely legal to design and build your own boat and put it in the water pretty much anywhere in the world. If you want to carry paying passengers then things are different, but that's why they were officially crew. (Crew members who are paying to be there has a very long history. One of the last lines operating sailing ships, in the 1920s and 30s, made money from merchant marine cadets whose countries still req…

I guess I was thinking about the licensing requirements in the US. It seems like you need a license for any powered watercraft.

https://www.boatus.org/study-guide/boat/registration/

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#964

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We have laborious and very expensive approval processes for airplanes, ask the 737 MAX inspector from the FAA how well that guarded against bad engineering. Those approval processes don't work when the government regulators allow the company being regulated to "self-regulate". There was no real FAA approval process for the 737MAX: FAA just let Boeing do it themselves. Of course that's going to lead to bad engineerin…

that’s my point; approval processes are always gamed around because of the cost such processes impose. You can’t just say oh the rules ought to be perfect and perfectly implemented for it to work. That’s not a world in which we live in. In fact, the more thorough the process, the more to gain in working around it. In the meantime such processes add much to the expense such that only larger well-funded and well-connec…

>It’s a reason planes basically look the same for many decades too; newer stuff is harder to get through.

Not true. The reason planes look the same is because that's simply the optimal shape and layout, aerodynamically, for carrying passengers in the most fuel-efficient manner. Ask any aerospace engineer.

But there's been some big differences if you look more closely. Engine nacelles are a lot larger than they were 50 years ago, since bigger high-bypass turbofans are more efficient. And winglets are basically standard now. Under the skin there's huge differences: fly-by-wire, composite wings, etc.

>Also part of why Boeing thought it best to revise an existing design once more

Wrong. It's because some customers (cough Southwest cough) would only fly 737s, and because the FAA's broken rules allowed anything called a "737" with a 737 airframe to be flown by any pilot rated for that aircraft, even if they've only flown one from 1969, even though there's big differences between the generations, and because the FAA didn't mandate a more thorough process for this loophole. Boeing was afraid that these 737 users would buy the A320neo instead of a different Boeing plane, if forced into a choice of something new. In reality, the 737 airframe is old and obsolete, and should have been retired ages ago, but is only kept alive because of bad FAA regulations.

>The process led to bad design decisions quite directly, though of course everyone blames Boeing (rightly) but not the process the FAA imposed.

This is correct. The FAA is the root of the problem here. But the problem isn't that "processes can be gamed around", the problem is that this particular regulatory agency was corrupt and failed in its primary duty. Of course regulations can be gamed around; that's why the regulators are supposed to stay on top of that, and continually revise regulations to deal with this. It's a cat-and-mouse game, but here the cat just gave up and let the mouse tell it how to do its job as a cat. The answer to this problem isn't to get rid of cats; it's to euthanize this particular cat and get a better cat.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#965

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less than it's off the shelf and more that it's the cheap brand your mom might buy your little brother as a second controller because it's half the price of the first-party one.

It’s cheap because it’s mass produced. If you asked for one you’d be charged for all the engineering, r&d and manufacturing for a one off. It would be a suitably expensive controller, but probably no higher quality. The cheap controller angle is noise in my opinion.

The Microsoft controller is significantly better, with millions of dollars of R&D behind it, and I bought mine for $35 a few years ago.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#966
post #918

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He told CBS News: "You know, there's a limit. At some point safety just is pure waste. I mean if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed. Don't get in your car. Don't do anything. At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules." https://metro.co.uk/2023/06/20/titanic-sub-ceo-was-worried-a...

I’ve know mountain climbers, hang glider/paraglider pilots, scuba divers, sky divers, and more and we pretty much say that exact thing. I’ve been casual acquaintances with people who have died doing extreme sports. Usually, the people in these sports say if the worst were to happen to them, they accept that risk and wouldn’t want their fate to stop other people from following their passions. That the feeling of being…

But they endanger others who have to go looking or attempt to rescue them.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#967

I firmly believe that people can risk their lives in however manner they wish, but with a few caveats. If your paying customers are also risking their lives, they should have a clear picture (I'm not sure this was the case here.) Also, you should have insurance or some other way of paying for a possible rescue operation.

Considering the net worth of the occupants, I'm sure the bill won't be a problem.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#968
post #3

The US Navy uses an Xbox 360 controller in active service [0] Mass market has a lot of R&D to leverage so it makes sense. Nothing to say this is the cause of the fault and probably going to be more reliable than something hand rolled. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military...

Logitech F710 has been the least reliable controller I have ever used. Connectivity and driver issues all over the place across all Windows OS's I have ever had the displeasure of using it with. Once I switched to Xbox controllers on my Win machine those issues were a thing of the past.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#969

One shall not obsess with the game controller they use, I suppose, in their analysis, failing the controller wouldn't prevent the sub from resurfacing... It is symptomatic, however. The whole Silicon Valley is like that. You have the old guard, NASA, millions for fault analysis, rumors go the C code on some NASA rocket was certified at $1000 per line---human eyeballs reading it... All those start-ups and unicorns, th…

Like the video [1] mentions, they were only improvising on things (including the controller) that would not pose a safety hazard if they failed. The critical components like the capsule were designed alongside NASA and others. People aren't just tossing safety to the wind, but trying to create a better balance. NASA does spend a extreme amount of money on compliance and safety - yet that doesn't prevent them from doi…

> blowing up $600 million Mars probes because of a mismatch between Imperial and Metric units.

Damn, if I were the person/team responsible for that mistake, I don't think I could live that down.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#970

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Logitech has orders of magnitude more experience in manufacturing peripherals than Microsoft. You know that saying that anybody can build a bridge, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands? From what I've seen and heard, Logitech has used their experience to make peripherals that barely last longer than the warranty/return period. FWIW my 22 year old optical intellimouse from Microsoft is still…

From what I've seen Logitech stuff is next to indestructible (believe me I've tried).

Other than the mouse clickers going bad in about a year 4 times in a row...
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