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Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

arstechnica.com

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Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#651

With all the talk about failure modes of carbon fiber, the scariest part of this article is the photo of the display and light held up by screws drilled into the side of the pressure vessel.

I heard an anecdote at one point that when a submarine depressurizes that deep, everything inside gets pushed through whatever hole caused the depressurization, like squeezing the contents out of a tube of toothpaste. Might have been from the Byford Dolphin accident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_Dolphin "Hellevik, being exposed to the highest pressure gradient and in the process of moving to secure the inner…

Damn did you really need to add those graphic details. Enough internet for today.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#652
post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is simply unbelievable that the company was even able to get to the point of diving to such depths with humans aboard. As I get older, I see this sentiment as very naive. The tacit assumption seems to be that there is an agency, a government, an organization, that would review and approve such endeavors. But that's just not how the world works. You can't stop people from going to sea, or sending contraptions to t…

> You can't stop that, and personally, I don't think its a good idea. To get it you'd need a nanny state that snoops on everyone and steps in to stop you "for your own safety". It's easy to imagine scenarios where this gets out of hand. Personally, I think it ought to be illegal to misrepresent your service’s safety. I seriously doubt the passengers onboard were aware of OceanGate’s whistleblower lawsuit or the claim…

> Personally, I think it ought to be illegal to misrepresent your service’s safety.

IANAL. This isn't just your personal opinion. In Common Law jurisdictions, see also: negligence, false advertising, deception, fraud, and misrepresentation. Civil Law jurisdictions have concepts that are comparable.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#653
post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is definitely a difference, but it doesn’t really matter philosophically speaking. If people want to take huge risks, then so be it. Whether they build the sub themselves or pay and give that responsibility to a proxy, it is still up to them to make their own risk assessment.

Libertarian students have a notoriously difficult time in philosophy departments because of these kinds of eager statements. The question of whether or not organisations, businesses, states, armed forces, educational institutions, self-declared medical providers, and other entities incur some obligation to preserve peoples lives - and if so in which ways and to what extents - are far from settled questions. It helps…

As you say, these kinds of questions are not ‘settled’ so it’s somewhat up to personal opinion. I think the best policy is to enforce rules only when there are obvious benefits. In the same way that theories should be simple, regulations should be too: “Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler”

I’m not a hard line libertarian, I think regulations are good in many cases. But not in the case of high risk adventuring. If you want to climb Everest, visit the titanic or the stratosphere, then that’s up to you: the state need not hold your hand, the risks are obvious to anyone with eyes.

The fact that libertarians have a difficult time just goes to show how close minded and dogmatic universities are. If all flavours of opinions were respected enough for discussion then I think you would end up with less extremists online and in general.

I think the demarcation problem applies just as well to politics as to science. What is good policy? Impossible to know absolutely, so we must rely on heuristics, judgement and intuition. Claims to truly objective knowledge just don’t hold up. Regulators often fail, and in many cases no regulation is preferable. I can’t prove that, but critics can’t prove otherwise, so we discuss and learn and change our opinions as we go.

The Grenfell tower is good example of failure of regulation. And I think the fundamental problem _is_ over regulation. When regulations become bloated beyond the capacity to enforce them, most of them are ignored and the most obvious ones are the only ones enforced. If the regulation was simpler it would be easier to enforce because you would only focus on _critical_ aspects. Instead of simplifying, people campaign for more regulation, forgetting second order effects that make things less safe.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#654
post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone downvoting antonvs please explain why? I think it’s a valid opinion to hold and point to make irrespective of whether you agree.

I didn’t downvote him, but I think it’s a bit dismissive of the original point and kind of falls prey to the no true Scotsman fallacy. antonvs’ point can be summarized as essentially “even though you have firsthand experience running companies with cobbled together critical infrastructure, that’s not actually cobbled together infrastructure.”

What antonovs tries to say that larger, older companies will tend to have a collection of modules/components that over the years have been relatively well tested and hardened. While a system may be cobbled together with the metaphorical duct tape, at least the components are sane-ish themselves.

Look at e.g. Kubernetes. You can cobble something together on kubernetes and once you get it limping, the system will be running surprisingly well for being cobbled together, compared to e.g. a system cobbled together from one off bash scripts.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully all of these features are independently tested.

Why would you need to test it? You only use it in an emergency

>"You'll never do a wind up turn in a normal flight regime."

-Somebody at Boeing about MCAS at some point, probably.

Besides which, shedding ballast is part of it's normal operational cycle. One would hope that would be bulletproof.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#656

I am blown away that there is any overlap between HN readers and people getting gotten by this clickbait. The controller is sending control signals to the computer which controls the motors. The controller itself is basically irrelevant . It’s not actually doing the control, the motor controllers are. Using off the shelf stuff like this is also common since it’s extremely well tested and usually very physically robus…

People take issue with the controller thing because it is in the intersection of what common hackernews readers know/understand and related to this situation.

So the conclusion could be that if the controller is a bad / cheap, everything else is also similar, hence the reason for this situation.

But from what I can tell, the pressure vessel + multiple levels of redundant safeties for surfacing all seem pretty well-done. The fact that the CEO and sub designer is down there tells me this wasn't some entirely sloppy cost-cutting solution they hobbled together.

Also, one of the "passengers" they call "Mr Titanic" is also down there - so not a clueless person looking for an adrenaline rush as some other comment mentioned.

These people understand the risks first-hand and have deemed it acceptable to go on it - game controller or not.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#657
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm not convinced this is in any way related to the issues. I'm far more concerned with the system that such a controller was plugged into than the controller itself. Commercial off the shelf pc? What kind of redundancy? How was power and power backup managed?

The guidance and control system seems to run on a GTK (?) app running on what looks like Ubuntu 10.04. An HDMI cable can be seen running to the monitor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc&t=33s If I had to take a random guess, this system is probably some form of an embedded Atom/Geode type device (if not just a notebook PC) with some CAN or RS485/422/232 interfaces attached via USB.

Trusting your life to Bluetooth on Linux. Ouch.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#658
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also annoyed at the company for all the public emergency resources being forced to help rescue this contraption.

Budgets are unfortunately a zero sum game, and I have to wonder if there are much more obvious ways to save lives more efficiently with the amount of money it’s costing the US government to undertake a massive and technically complex search for 5 people.

If you're going to go down that route, please direct it at the cost of the US military's unfathomably high spending.

Re: Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering

#660
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> OceanGate says it is an experimental vessel, and when CBS travelled onboard the correspondent had to sign a waiver accepting that it "has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body, and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma or death". https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65960217 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o

When you get right down to it, the people who boarded this submersible on Sunday probably didn’t want to die. No matter what waiver they signed.

nobody wants to die ('cept for people looking to suicide). The waiver is an acknowledgement that what they're doing is dangerous, and could cause them to die. As an adult, you have the right to accept this risk, if the reward for doing so is worth it in your eyes.

Unless, of course, if those signing the waivers were mislead.

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