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Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

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Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#591

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Seems like it’s happening without government intervention. It’s hard to imagine now that Ford, GM, and Tesla are on the same standard that the rest will not follow suit.

Volkswagen owns Electrify America the only competitor at scale to Tesla's supercharging network. they uses CCS and VW is one of the largest car manufacturers in the world. i think they can stand on their own. time will tell though.

Go check out some car forums for folks that depend on EA (like Lucid). I've never had an issue with EA, but the general consensus seems to be that EA reliability is abysmal, with stations frequently being down (though reviews seem to be on an uptrend starting in 2023, so perhaps it was a pandemic related issue).

As another commenter stated, though, Volkswagen was forced to create EA as part of their Dieselgate settlement, and their behavior in the past hasn't exactly instilled confidence that they see it as something worth investing in.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#592

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The problem is that CCS is objectively bad and way worse than NACS. I suggest watching Sandy Munro's analysis on it.

I don't think people can hear this loud enough. I own an EV with CCS, I'm glad the rest of the industry looks to be going NACS. CCS is in fact objectively terrible. CCS could only seem decent when it was following on something as truly atrocious as Chademo.

> I own an EV with CCS, I'm glad the rest of the industry looks to be going NACS. CCS is in fact objectively terrible.

Can you explain your reasoning? I have an EV with CCS and have never had a problem with it, so I don't know what is "objectively terrible" about it.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#593

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If your commute is less than 100 miles, you have nothing to worry, if you get a proper charger at home. Owned Tesla for 3.5 years with 60 mile commute, it has been very nice.

If this is true, what is EV replacing? If my commute is less than 100 miles should I not be using train, light rail, trolley, bus, or similar public transport? The historical use for me and my family and those who has a car, for generation was "road trips", anything over 100 miles.

For fun, I just looked up my route tomorrow using public transportation.

I typically leave around 6:30am, drive 45 miles and arrive at work about 7:15am.

Using Google and a host of websites to plan, I could walk a mile to catch a regional bus, ride and arrive there 1 hour after I began. I can then walk to another bus station, ride a local bus to a the main bus station, connect to another bus that drops me off pretty much at my workplace. I'd arrive 2.5 hours after I began this journey. The earliest I can get to work by this route is 9:30am. The regional bus system doesn't run any earlier.

Alternatively, if I take our non-ev, it's the same time, but costs 5x as much as our Model Y. The ICE car cost about the same as the EV.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#594

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Are you a time traveler from 2014? Tesla is now closing in on run rates of 1.5-2 million. They are on bath to overtake companies like BMW in total sales. They are already far more profitable. You seem to still think of Tesla as some small fish. Tesla is the biggest BEV producer in the world by a large margin. They produce more EV then all of the major German producers put together and at better margins. Volkswagen is…

If you include PHEV, Tesla is second behind BYD. Even if you look at EV only, the margin is not insurmountably large. When the big automakers (Ford, GM) truly change over they will dwarf Tesla. https://www.ev-volumes.com

But I'm not including PHEV as those are a very different supply chain.

> the margin is not insurmountably large

Mhh sorry what?

Look at how tiny Ford is. And you have to understand that Ford was very, very late at doing battery partnership. Their battery factories are very late. So they will not scale very fast the next 3-5 years because of battery constraints.

At the same time, GM on this diagram looks way larger then it is in reality. The reason GM looks big is because of one tiny China only micro-car that yields almost no profit and will never be exported (and sales have gone down this year already). Their actual Ultium sales are barley existing.

You keep thinking these companies are so much bigger then Tesla, they are not. Ford and GM have less then 2x the revenue of Tesla. Tesla has faster growth and less debt and less aging infrastructure (they have brand new factories) and now legacy business. In terms of available capital Tesla can actually deploy far more, and raise money far more then Ford or GM.

Let me give you an example, Volkswagen. The ID.3 is comparable to the Model 3 and it came out in 2019. It was part of their MEB platform, something they had majority invested years before that. In 2018 they said they would invest 50 billion $ and have since increased that. Clearly they matched Tesla in spending for the last 8 years or so. And yet look at the chart, they have half the BEV sales of Tesla. And Volkswagen is consider very successful in the EV world.

You vastly underestimate how hard it is to transition to EV. Just because Ford, GM, Honda and so on are bigger then Tesla, does not magically mean they can just start mass producing EV. Go at actually look at how hard it is to scale, even for large companies with huge ability to invest.

> (Ford, GM) truly change

Have you looked at Ford and GM own predictions. Because you seem to have a higher opinion on these companies then they themselves have.

Ford just talked about how they would be losing money for many more years and then only just match what Tesla is doing just now.

Large companies often over promise what they can do. But you actually go beyond that and claim that they under promised and will do significantly better then they themselves believe.

Of course GM just learn a hard lessen with their initial battery factory, scaling is hard and that why Ultium had almost no sales in Q1.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#595

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If I compare it to USB-based connectors where USB-C never came along. NACS is like a Lightning plug. From a practical/pragmatic perspective, it was clearly the best plug at the time it was created. It solved real user problems. CCS a micro-USB 3.0 plug. Maybe you've never seen one[0], but they are a real thing. Let's take an awful plug (micro USB / J1772) and clumsily add a few more wires on to it to make it both mor…

IMO then let's standardize on what the replacement to NACS/CCS should be. Personally, I don't see the big deal behind a larger connector, especially if it's a bit more future proof without requiring extremely clever engineering. I mean we've dealt with huge gasoline/diesel pump handles for nearly a century.

NACS is perfectly fine. It’s open now, unlike Lightning

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#596
post #160
post #78

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CCS current spec/design can deliver up to 350kW (although few if any cars can take advantage of that today). NACS claims it can provide up to 1MW (1000A @ 1000V). I think it will be a while before we see cars able to charge anywhere near this, but there is a trend right now of big EV pickups with massive batteries. Higher power chargers means faster charge times. The only downside I see with NACS is you can’t level 2…

>In most of Europe homes do have 3-phase power and large loads like an EV are required to use it. Yes and no, distribution is usually 3-phase so the 3 phases do arrive to the building, but in a number of countries in Europe inside the home only 1 phase is used and the amount of available power (by contract) is a fraction of what the US are used to (of course depending by country, but it is rare that a house has a con…

I would say in many places in Europe three phase power is normal inside the home. In fact electric stoves including induction usually rely on three phases.

I'm currently building a house in Germany and 34 kW was the smallest option and 86 kW the biggest option. 11 kW 3-phases is pretty much the standard for a Wallbox at your home.

In Italy I know there's usually only very few power like 3 kW

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#597

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Ford will track your entire drive, how you used your car, even the radio station that was playing. All of this data is uploaded when you take your car in for servicing if you do not have a connected car. OnStar recently (2-3 years ago now?) started feeding 100gbps of telematics data on every single GM car back to GM in an effort to determine better pricing on used cars. Data includes every sensor change on the car an…

Eh, and so what? My phone carrier has most of this info. Google has most of this info (in addition to my emails). Ford is in for rude awakening if they think that this data is going to seriously help them.

Also, Ford and GM do not do service. A lot of the detailed car information can really help with service and maintenance. But dealers actually don't want that to improve systematically and Ford doesn't gain enough from it.

Tesla makes all that dealer profit themselves and can systematically improve service and make a huge profit from off warranty vehicles. This is a huge revenue stream Tesla is only just starting to get. Something people often miss when they look at future profitability.

Ford and GM make huge amounts of money from part supply fro off warranty cars. Tesla will do even better because they will do the service, not just the parts.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is indeed totally insane, but this is what is being worked on, not necessairly for cars but trucks and semi trucks for example that have much larger batteries than a car. Already to achieve 250+ kW charging stations have to have huge cables and watercooled connectors, here's one such installation I saw some years ago https://i.imgur.com/BpG4QAa.jpg and an example of a cooled connector for 0.5 MW https://www.phoeni…

I assume the next jump in power will come from voltage. A Model 3 pulls ~600A when charging at 250kW, because it's relatively low voltage. If they alter the charging design to accept 800 or 1000V we could see over half a MW without a change in cable design. But I'd guess at this point that would be moot because the cell charging rate is the real limit anyway.

All indication point to that the Cybertruck will be the first new architecture with a 1000V architecture.

Many others have standardized on 800V, for example the Koreans.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#599
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait. CCS1 cant handle three-phase power? I just read about it and no wonder its not that popular. You can charge 7.4kw maximum in the US at home with CCS1. In Europe you can charge up to 22kw without going DC.

Level 2 can charge up to 19kW (240V at 80A) but 12kW (50A) is more common. NACS also can't do three-phase power. Three-phase power is rare in the US, it is only found in commercial locations that need it.

How does the US get to 240v if you guys don’t have multiple phases at home?

Not an electrician, but here In Europe we get to 400v by combining the three 240v phases we get.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#600

I'm not an EV user, so I need some clarification. Is NACS actually a better connector? Or is it just more abundant at the moment? Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. The argument for NACS I've seen is that it's a little sleeker (does this really matter all that much?) and it's already on Tesla's supercharger network.

> Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. He did a video on this Connextras channel about this news: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjny4u5THpU While he thinks the Tesla physical connector is probably better, the CCS communications standard is better (AIUI). So once Telsa adopts that, it will probably be a good system. Also: he's ta…

Tesla start charging much much faster. Tesla communication is perfectly fine for Tesla to Tesla connection and Tesla has no need to change that.

Teslas start charging within 5-8s, CCS often take 30s to start charging.

Tesla will follow the standard for other cars, but I hope they improve on the implementation.

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