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Modafinil and Startups

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Re: Modafinil and Startups

#101

Post by gwern »

Tossrock wrote: post #99
JulianMorrison wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, nope, coffee is pretty popular. The differences between coffee and modafinil are: coffee tastes better, modafinil does the same job for longer with less side effects.

Actually, modafinil is practically tasteless, which I would say is objectively better than the bitter taste of coffee. Of course, it's possible to train yourself to enjoy that bitter taste through operant conditioning, but it's not really a "better" taste.

Or you could drink tea, which is tasty, and then you also get both caffeine and theanine.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#102

Post by gwern »

Jach wrote: post #4
w1ntermute wrote: post #3

Is it just me, or does using mind-altering substances to get through one's daily schedule seem like it crosses the line? I'm always a little baffled when people sacrifice their health for work - it's a very bad decision in the long term. You can always find another job, but once you damage your health, you may never get it back.

Do you drink coffee or caffeinated soda? Also Modafinil by itself doesn't seem to cause any health problems, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. The impure Adrafinil can cause liver problems though. I'd agree that a drug that gave work benefits but resulted in brain damage 2 years later isn't worth it, but let's be specific when talking about what health risks are around for particular chemicals, diets, and…

> The impure Adrafinil can cause liver problems though.

Adrafinil always needs disclaimers, but looks like it is now a thing of the past with Olmifon shutting down production.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#103

Post by swombat »

zackzackzack wrote: post #28
swombat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is my own main takeaway... Which is why I don't take Modafinil anymore.

What about combining good health with using Modafinil? The naive idea is if they are good by themselves, they could be better together.

When I'm well rested, well fed, healthy, etc, then the Modafinil just has the basic effect of increasing focus and energy while decreasing breadth of thinking, with the comedown 8 or so hours later that leaves me sucked dry. It's not that bad, but it's not so great as to be worth the risk on a regular basis, imho.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#104

Post by gwern »

powertower wrote: post #51

For anyone that's interested, when he says "online pharmacy", what that really means (at least in the US), is: A. An Overseas pseudo-legal (at best) operation that will send you the drugs discreetly in an envelope. The success rate of getting it through US Customs will be good as long as it's not shipped from a hot spot and does not come in a package. B. A Mexican drug dealing operation that smuggles the drugs across…

> A. An Overseas pseudo-legal (at best) operation that will send you the drugs discreetly in an envelope. The success rate of getting it through US Customs will be good as long as it's not shipped from a hot spot and does not come in a package.

Very good. I know an online modafinil seller; she tells me that the failure rate in the past year or two for her has been <5%. This accords with my own experiences.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#105

Post by gwern »

Hm, didn't expect to see this on Hacker News. Better copy over my comment from Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/q878x/modafinil_... :

> Sure, you won't find studies of people who fried their neurons by using Modafinil for 10 years in a row, but that's because Modafinil isn't that old yet.

Actually, it is. Even ignoring all the animal and French experiments etc, Cephalon got FDA approval and started selling it in the US in... 1997? 1998? That's close to 14 years now.

This is why blogs with no comments annoy me - how is the author supposed to find out that he made an obvious mistake? Or for that matter his claim modafinil is more amphetamine-like that proponents claim - well, I'm a proponent but at least when I claim it has little in common, I have [actual citations](http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil#fn11).

EDIT: I checked; it was approved in December 1998, so 1 December 1998 - today is 13 years, 2 months, and 27 days.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#106

Post by gwern »

alinajaf wrote: post #21

Someone brought this up last time we talked about this on HN so I thought I would mention it here. Modafinil is technically a _stimulant_, not a cognitive enhancer (like piracetam).

Er, piracetam is usually described as being a nootropic, and substances like nicotine or amphetamines or caffeine as being cognitive enhancers due to the existence of known decreases in performance; because modafinil has few to no known mental penalties, it is usually described as being a nootropic and not a cognitive enhancer.

Stimulant, on the other hand, is a completely cross-cutting orthogonal classification. A drug which enhanced transfer of information into long-term memory and nothing else could rightly be described as a nootropic but not a stimulant.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#107

Post by gwern »

throwaway12315 wrote: post #95

I have taken 100-400mg of Modafinil daily for about 10 years. I happen to have my 23andme results (thanks for the tip, tene!) and it looks like I'm rs4680(A;A). Despite what the paper in CPT says, it does have a significant effect on my alertness. The comments about procrastination and focus all sound familiar to me. So do the comments about addiction: sometimes I'll forget to take it and if I don't have any because…

> Despite what the paper in CPT says, it does have a significant effect on my alertness.

You're not the first 23andMe user I've heard say that; as I caution people in my section on the topic ( http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil#effects ) SNP studies are pretty gosh-darn unreliable, and even if the SNP effect turns out to be genuine (as they often do not), the effect may not be worth caring about.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#108

Post by jacques_chester »

DEinspanjer wrote: post #43

I have taken 200mg of Modafinil daily for more than 5 years. Before it, I could go to sleep just about anywhere and just about any time. I could easily sleep for 12 to 14 hours a day if I let myself. When I had a work commute of about an hour and a half, I would have to pull over, sometimes four or five times, during the afternoon drive home to take cat naps because I couldn't keep my eyes open. It didn't matter how…

> I could easily sleep for 12 to 14 hours a day if I let myself.

This is a very common symptom of obstructive sleep apnea. Did your sleep study test for it?

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#109

Post by DEinspanjer »

jacques_chester wrote: post #108
DEinspanjer wrote: post #43

I have taken 200mg of Modafinil daily for more than 5 years. Before it, I could go to sleep just about anywhere and just about any time. I could easily sleep for 12 to 14 hours a day if I let myself. When I had a work commute of about an hour and a half, I would have to pull over, sometimes four or five times, during the afternoon drive home to take cat naps because I couldn't keep my eyes open. It didn't matter how…

> I could easily sleep for 12 to 14 hours a day if I let myself. This is a very common symptom of obstructive sleep apnea. Did your sleep study test for it?

Yep. It seemed that their primary focuses for the study were sleep apnea and then narcolepsy. When they didn't find anything there, the looked at a few other things and then just gave me the general diagnosis.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#110

Post by TruthElixirX »

SageRaven wrote: post #61
radu_floricica wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of mind altering substances in our diet. I eagerly await the day we can culturally accept that alcohol is an archaic drug, and we can replace it with modern alternatives that don't destroy livers and families. Modafinil could already be a modern alternative to coffee. It's definitely not perfect, but in some ways it's a lot better and it seems to be safe enough. It's far from perfect - for example I'…

We had a great replacement for caffeine -- ephedrine. Mini-Thins were a staple of my college life. Then they banned it (I blame media hysteria), and now I'm stuck with the steeping ephedra plant leaves (known as "Mormon tea" in these parts) for the occasional late-night productivity boost.

Try Bronkaid.
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