Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

ev-edition.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

471–480 of 761 posts

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#471

Post by perfectstorm »

mattmaroon wrote: post #467
javier_e06 wrote: post #458

I am an EV user. My connection is not Tesla compatible. I wish the government would prod manufacturers to create a common connection for all EVs the same way there is a common gas intake for all gas powered vehicles.

Seems like it’s happening without government intervention. It’s hard to imagine now that Ford, GM, and Tesla are on the same standard that the rest will not follow suit.

Volkswagen owns Electrify America the only competitor at scale to Tesla's supercharging network. they uses CCS and VW is one of the largest car manufacturers in the world. i think they can stand on their own. time will tell though.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#472

Post by xeromal »

jdminhbg wrote: post #437
xeromal wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone loves to complain about panel gaps and that's usually what drives them mad. lol. I've never cared for panel gaps or minimalists interiors though.

I have heard the phrase "panel gap" a million times and don't think I have ever seen or (or I guess, noticed) one on any car in my entire life.

Same. Sadly I don't break out the calipers when I pick up my new car. lol

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#473

Post by Lramseyer »

mkozlows wrote: post #265
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The thing about how this is affects Tesla is "compared to what?" Compared to the historic status quo where there were no other chargers, and Tesla had exclusive access to a large-ish proprietary charging network, it looks like Tesla giving up their advantage, and seems bad. But the forward-looking status quo was going to be a gigantic network of CCS chargers that makes Tesla's proprietary network look small, with eve…

I think this alternate future of a gigantic CCS network is a really long ways off. Have you ever tried to use non-Tesla DC fast charging? It's a mess! There aren't a lot of stalls, one of them is usually broken, and the payment processing is a mess! I thought people were exaggerating until I experienced it first hand. While I think they will eventually get their act together, I don't think it's unreasonable to claim that the terrible DC fast charging experience is a huge deterrent to non-tesla EV buyers right now. This ultimately creates a chicken and egg problem that results in such slow progress in the EV charging world (outside of Tesla.) It's why Tesla's US EV market share is around 60%.

I actually think this is great for Tesla in other ways in the nearer term. With other automakers switching to NACS, this removes a huge concern for would be non-Tesla EV buyers. Now you may think this would erode Tesla's market share, but I think it will convert far more ICE customers than Tesla customers. The net effect is a faster EV adoption, faster cultural acceptance of EVs, and more people considering Tesla in the near-mid term.

I fail to see how this negatively affects Ford, GM, and Rivian. They can retrofit the charge port relatively cheaply or deal with an adapter. Yes, it affects resale value of early customers. But that's how it goes with new technology, and buyers are naive to think otherwise. Besides, when compared to their ICE counterparts, they're probably still coming out ahead on maintenance.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#474

Post by mkozlows »

javier_e06 wrote: post #458

I am an EV user. My connection is not Tesla compatible. I wish the government would prod manufacturers to create a common connection for all EVs the same way there is a common gas intake for all gas powered vehicles.

They did. It was CCS. Everyone except Tesla was on board to using it, and it was widely viewed as the standard going forward, and even Tesla was retro-fitting its chargers with CCS ("Magic Dock"), and presumably would one day switch its cars over.

Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla, and now the only question is whether Tesla consolidates the entire industry behind it (possible) or we end up in a world with a split between NACS and CCS (also possible, but probably less likely).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#475

Post by throw0101c »

erinnh wrote: post #262
throw0101c wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. He did a video on this Connextras channel about this news: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjny4u5THpU While he thinks the Tesla physical connector is probably better, the CCS communications standard is better (AIUI). So once Telsa adopts that, it will probably be a good system. Also: he's ta…

Wait. CCS1 cant handle three-phase power? I just read about it and no wonder its not that popular. You can charge 7.4kw maximum in the US at home with CCS1. In Europe you can charge up to 22kw without going DC.

> Wait. CCS1 cant handle three-phase power?

CCS1 = SAE J1772 + DC.

J1772 has L1, L2/neutral, ground, control pins:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

J1772 is popular where one-phase is popular in residences (i.e., US, CA). CCS2 has L1, L2, L3, and neutral+ground:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J3068

Technically there was nothing stopping the use of CCS2 in the US, as the L2 and L3 pins would simply not be used at people's homes. But one-phase J1772 was already around, and it was decided to go with legacy compatibility.

I'm sure CCS2 exists in more commercial settings with heavy duty EVs, e.g., Volvo Trucks:

* https://www.volvotrucks.us/news-and-stories/press-releases/2...

Though high/er capacity (DC) plugs are being worked on:

* https://insideevs.com/news/535918/megawatt-charging-system-e...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megawatt_Charging_System

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#478

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mkozlows wrote: post #474
javier_e06 wrote: post #458

I am an EV user. My connection is not Tesla compatible. I wish the government would prod manufacturers to create a common connection for all EVs the same way there is a common gas intake for all gas powered vehicles.

They did. It was CCS. Everyone except Tesla was on board to using it, and it was widely viewed as the standard going forward, and even Tesla was retro-fitting its chargers with CCS ("Magic Dock"), and presumably would one day switch its cars over. Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla, and now the only question is whether Tesla consolid…

> Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford

Consumers prefer NACS to CCS. And Electrify America failed, spectacularly, to deliver a working product. (As someone put it bluntly, NACS exists. CCS does not. You bet on the horse, not the unicorn.)

The auto industry is standardising around NACS because it will eventually force the standard into the open. That, in turn, enables antitrust questions about the Tesla/Supercharger tie-up. (In the meantime, everyone avoids the wastefulness of a meaningless standards battle.)

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#479

Post by Server6 »

mkozlows wrote: post #474
javier_e06 wrote: post #458

I am an EV user. My connection is not Tesla compatible. I wish the government would prod manufacturers to create a common connection for all EVs the same way there is a common gas intake for all gas powered vehicles.

They did. It was CCS. Everyone except Tesla was on board to using it, and it was widely viewed as the standard going forward, and even Tesla was retro-fitting its chargers with CCS ("Magic Dock"), and presumably would one day switch its cars over. Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla, and now the only question is whether Tesla consolid…

The problem is that CCS is objectively bad and way worse than NACS. I suggest watching Sandy Munro's analysis on it.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#480

Post by mensetmanusman »

athenot wrote: post #258
jorvi wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always forget just how energy dense petroleum and its derivatives are..

This is true. Though the electric batteries do have the advantage of having already paid the "thermodynamics tax". Some of the energy in gas will go towards heat losses; energy that cannot be converted to movement.

But that thermodynamic tax is a negative in very cold climates where the electric vehicle will see a major change in total travel distance compared to ICE.
Post reply on HN