Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

ev-edition.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 761 posts

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#181

Post by rootusrootus »

alistairSH wrote: post #144
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the business case for that closes. EVs are still overwhelmingly charged overnight at home. As they percolate to lower price points, that will change somewhat, but ultimately the total spend on charging stations is just too low to be much more than a distraction for a company the size of Tesla. The reason they built the supercharger network was that it was needed to sell cars, and now that they have it t…

You hinted at this, but a significant % of the population lives in either rented or multi-family housing, so home charging may not be feasible (at least in the short-to-medium term). While I own my home, I don't own my parking space (community property, assigned to me via HOA rules). While we're allowed to install a chargers, it's only possible for homes with assigned spaces directly in front of the home (albeit pric…

The people who can charge at home still make up more than 50% of the market, though, and there's a few more years before that really becomes a limiting factor in sales. That's plenty of time for most places to get L2 chargers available.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#182

Post by itsoktocry »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #7
genericone wrote: post #3

Tesla owns the electric gas station! for now... Now that unity is achieved in the US, I think we're about to see an explosion in charging stations and designs of various charging hubs (drive-in movies's revival?) as Tesla won't be allowed to own the network 100% come soon.

Who else is going to invest in a fast DC network? The closest competitor was Electrify America, and they can't make the economics work. Tesla made it work by subsidizing their $1B+ global fast DC charging network cost out of robust vehicle margins. Most EV users will charge at home, some at their place of work and businesses, with fast DC charging filling the remaining gap (people who can't charge at home or people o…

>The closest competitor was Electrify America, and they can't make the economics work. Tesla made it work by subsidizing their $1B+ global fast DC charging network cost out of robust vehicle margins.

The economics are going to have to change.

Right now, dollar-for-dollar, electricity for your vehicle is cheaper than gasoline. I'm confident that will not be the case in the near future; the charging infrastructure has to be built and maintained, and the government will want their tax money (in Canada, a significant proportion of gas prices are taxes).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#183

Post by jancsika »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #97
jancsika wrote: post #55

Would love to hear fast how charging stations will scale in a way that beats the current price and speed of filling up a car with gasoline. I mean, even in a small town with, say, three gas stations, there are peak times when all the spots are taken. Average fueling time is probably a few minutes. How to switch that to an all-electric system? + build a significantly higher number of fast electric charges than there a…

Currently the price of energy per mile at a Tesla Supercharger is about 1/3 to 1/2 the equivalent amount of gasoline. If you charge at home it's more like 1/4. A large fraction (probably more than half) of EV owners charge at home and rarely need a fast charger. Approximately zero ICE owners refuel at home. ICE cars must be refueled at gas stations. Demand for fast chargers will never be as high as demand for gas sta…

> Currently the price of energy per mile at a Tesla Supercharger is about 1/3 to 1/2 the equivalent amount of gasoline.

Is there a citation for that? It was my understanding that fast chargers were much more expensive, but I could be wrong.

> Approximately zero ICE owners refuel at home.

Nor do they currently use the extra electricity needed to fuel their cars each night. Again, at scale that's going to have an effect on electricity costs.

> Anybody with $10,000 can install PV panels and charge their EV at home for free forever. Edit: bonus if you have links to any youtube vids of people who have done this and are currently subsidizing the entire cost of daily commutes with solar.

I don't know anything about solar and would love some citations if you have them.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#184

Post by jorvi »

saalweachter wrote: post #155
NickM wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DC charging stations sometimes have batteries on site so that they can charge up from the grid and then deliver bursts of power from the batteries during charging. Apparently this is often worth it to avoid the high demand fees that utilities charge when you draw a lot of power at once. I assume this will become more ubiquitous as charging speeds continue to increase. (You're right that a megawatt is a high power dra…

> but keep in mind that if you can pump ten gallons of gas in a minute you're effectively drawing the equivalent of something like 20MW, so in the context of vehicle refueling it's not so crazy If 15 Teslas pass through a stretch of road per minute with full 100kWh battery packs, you could also describe that as 90MW of current, but it's also not really.

I always forget just how energy dense petroleum and its derivatives are..

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#185

Post by bryanlarsen »

Plasmoid wrote: post #124
thrtythreeforty wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no data, but I suspect we underestimate the impact of at-home charging. Essentially, all vehicles parked at a residence start every day with a full charge. This eliminates most of the demand on fast-charge stations for around-town use. Granted, they still consume power that the grid has to supply, so pricing may change, but I suspect gas station traffic will go way down, in aggregate, as EV adoption climbs. On…

Some anti-EV states have realized this and have raised the registration cost on these cars substantially. This is less than the gas tax you would probably pay on normal commuting but I expect more states to follow this lead.

Most of the states that have introduced this fee are the states with low gas taxes, so EV owners end up paying substantially more in EV fees than an average user pays in gasoline taxes.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#186

Post by rootusrootus »

bushbaba wrote: post #62
piinbinary wrote: post #34

I wonder if Tesla is repositioning from being a Ford to being an Exxon

Tesla was always closer in vision to an energy company than auto maker. Wouldn’t surprise me if they leverage the healthy EV competition to growing their battery, supercharger, and energy generation capabilities. With these one day overtaking car sales revenue.

What battery capability? Do they even make the top 10? And superchargers are pretty sweet, but there is no moat at all there, anybody can make a NACS fast charger. EA hasn't done great, but that doesn't mean anything other than EA kinda sucks, there are plenty of manufacturers capable of building reliable DC chargers.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#187

Post by vel0city »

adrianmonk wrote: post #134
bpodgursky wrote: post #17

At this point, the rate at which automakers NACS support is a good proxy for corporate malaise. Everyone sees the writing on the wall for CCS, and if an automaker takes another couple months to announce a migration it simply means the executive leadership has no clue what they are doing with regards to EVs.

And/or, since automakers evidently need some sort of agreement with Tesla[1], if it takes a while, it could be due to negotiations. For example, if there are fees for using the connector (not sure), an automaker might hold out to get the best price. There may be terms related to the rates that will be paid for using Tesla's charging stations. There might be other issues. Maybe Tesla wants to qualify automakers' desig…

> Maybe Tesla wants to qualify automakers' designs so cars don't cause problems with their charging network, or vice versa.

I shouldn't need Exxon and Shell and Phillips and Wawa and Sheetz and whoever to qualify my car to get gas. I shouldn't need Tesla and EA and whoever to qualify my car to get electricity.

I don't see how anyone can see that and think its a good thing.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#188

Post by apendleton »

simondotau wrote: post #11
genericone wrote: post #3

Tesla owns the electric gas station! for now... Now that unity is achieved in the US, I think we're about to see an explosion in charging stations and designs of various charging hubs (drive-in movies's revival?) as Tesla won't be allowed to own the network 100% come soon.

Actually I think you'll find that the electric gas station is owned by anyone with a car garage and electricity. Fast DC charging is the exception, not the rule.

Sure, but I'd think that makes the economics of operating fast chargers all the more tenuous. Like, if we assume they're mostly needed for people away from home, that means both that they're essential to adoption of EVs in general (people want to be able to go on road trips) and that they suddenly go from being a thing people need all the time to a thing whose demand has extreme fluctuations seasonally, or with the economy insofar as it affects people's seasonal income, etc., just like other travel-oriented businesses like hotels.

(I should also note: so far the EV adoption story has been much better for people who own their homes and have dedicated parking, but as someone who lives in an urban neighborhood where most car-owners park on the street, I think expending to markets like mine will necessarily mean more public chargers are needed.)

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#189

Post by MattRix »

dahfizz wrote: post #150
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

Not a big fan of Tesla myself, but surely if they figure out self driving that’ll make their cars relevant for the forseeable future? On top of that they seem to be able to make cars cheaper and more quickly than most of the incumbents.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#190

Post by abfan1127 »

martythemaniak wrote: post #13
genericone wrote: post #3

Tesla owns the electric gas station! for now... Now that unity is achieved in the US, I think we're about to see an explosion in charging stations and designs of various charging hubs (drive-in movies's revival?) as Tesla won't be allowed to own the network 100% come soon.

An ordinary 120V 15A plug can add 100km to a car over night when electricity is 1/2 to 1/4 the price of a DC fast charger. Tesla's mobile charger is $200. The superchargers are essential is giving people the peace of mind to make the EV switch and for enabling long-distance road trips, but they just can't complete with the economics of home charging, which is where the bulk of EVs will be charged.

there are many home situations where home charging is not immediately feasible. Apartments and condos (both medium density or high density) are not conducive to personal charging installations.
Post reply on HN