Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fwiw bronze does oxidise quite readily, but the copper oxide is not porous, and becomes a resilient copper carbonate. Which is why bronze and other copper-alloy artefacts are extremely resilient, unless they come in contact with chlorides and get bronze disease.
I can tell you have some experience with old bronze/copper. Most people do not even know what "bronze disease" is.
Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
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Re: Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
#142More nice pictures here, very metal: https://www.welt.de/geschichte/article245860994/Archaeologie...
Re: Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
#143This is mindblowing. Here we are, 3000 years in the future. But how many of us could make such a “primitive” thing?
How many "primitives" could pass a 8year olds Spelling Bee?
Re: Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
#144Re: Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
#145This is mindblowing. Here we are, 3000 years in the future. But how many of us could make such a “primitive” thing?
Re: Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
#146The article is somewhat sensationalistic. Finding an octagonal type bronze sword ("Achtkantschwert" in German) from that period is rare, but we have quite a couple of them. Since bronze does not rust, the conditions of such swords are often quite good (and typically far better than that of medieval iron swords, for instance). Here is a map of the distribution of octagonal-hilted swords in Europe: https://www.research…
My knowledge of bronze vs iron comes purely from playing dwarf fortress. Are they fairly comparable in the damage they can cause?
Re: Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
#147What stands out to me is the pommel with the large handhold. That makes me think that it's a slashing sword, not a stabbing one. Then there's the fact that it's all metal, unlike how most ancient and medieval swords which were made with an handle of organic material around the tang of the blade. Probably not intended (ever) for use in fighting? Since it doesn't have a replacable handle.
I was under the impression that bronze swords' lifespans were limited by the metal; they can't be sharpened, but would need to be re-cast. A replaceable handle probably wouldn't help much.
But other damage was limited. Bends and dents andd the like can only be repaired so often before the metal becomes brittle. Work Hardening is sort of the application of this process just to the surface/edge.
Re: Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
Such myths are likely based on classical Rome rather than bronze age discoveries. For several centuries after the Western empire fell apart, Europeans lacked the capability to build settlements or structures anywhere close to the size typical of classical Roman civilization. Populations were depressed by pestilence, social order had declined, and most Europeans were within a short distance from a former Roman settlem…
It goes further back than that. In 400BC, Xenophon, while retreating from a failed attempt at taking Babylon, came across the abandoned ruins of a bunch of Assyrian cities, like Nineveh and wrote about them. 200 years after being abandoned, they were far more impressive than anything Xenophon would have seen in his home country. For example, Athens at that point had a city wall(the Themistoclean wall) approximately 5…
Re: Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
#149I collect swords, and this is a nice example. When researching swords from the medieval period I found this technique of starting with an octagonal "bar" of stock material and then using a hammer to shape the blade while leaving a round segment for the handle to be interesting. It makes sense of course, although it can make for an uncomfortable handle (hence the wrapped handles in more modern swords.)
Cool, what's your oldest sword and where does it come from? Do you display them or just collect them? I have a friend in Australia with a fairly significant knife (not sword) collection which will be for sale shortly (aged owner), let me know if interested.
In 1990 I was visiting Edinburgh on business for Sun, and I wanted a Claymore in celebration of my Scottish ancestry. At the Haymarket, I met an antique salesperson who let me in on the sad truth that a "real" one would set me back $40,000+ in 1990 dollars. But he mentioned that the British Museum sometimes sold "extras", swords which weren't particularly significant or not something they were going to add to the collection but selling them raised funds to cover costs. And he gave me the number of a curator of the Arms and Armor section of the museum.
I called and spoke to the curator who told me that no, they didn't have, nor would they sell me a sword from their collection, but they did do business with a swordsmith in Whitburn who they sometimes used to make copies of swords in their collection so that they could display the copy and preserve the original. This smith had worked with them for years and made a point about re-creating the original process as closely as possible. The curator gave me contact information for the swordsmith[1].
I called the swordsmith and explained to him what I was trying to accomplish and he understood right away but explained that it would be expensive. Making these copies often took months to make. I told him that was okay and asked what he would charge me, his answer was 1,500 pounds[2], 750 up front and 750 on completion. He had a sword he was making for the museum and it would make a good template for the one he would make me. I agreed to his terms and across a bunch of timezones on two different continents managed to arrange a wire transfer to his account for the 750 pounds.
I returned from Scotland and told my wife the whole thing and she was skeptical and thought I had burned up $2,000 on a silly idea. About five and a half months letter I get a telegram (yes, honest to goodness "YOUR SWORD IS READY STOP SEND BALANCE STOP ..." etc kind of thing. I called him on the phone and he agreed to make a crate for it and to ship it via counter to counter service of British Airlines (they had a couple of different non-stop flights to SFO). We had a discussion about customs and duties and whether or not I wanted the sword tempered as it would have been in the 15th century, or not. The plan was to not temper it, making it somewhat useless as a "real" sword, and declaring it as a "Work of art, made of metal" (no duty required). He gave me the flight number they would ship it on and I wired him the rest of the funds.
A few days later I went to SFO to pick it up, inquired at the BA desk and they redirected me to customs. I went to customs and they said, "This isn't a work of art, this is a sword. You owe 10% duty on it." I tried to explain to them that the Venus de Milo was just some pottery with no arms but they were having none of it. They stuck firm and asked what I paid for it. I told them "1,500" so they charged me $150 duty.He didn't ask the units, and I didn't offer :-).
A bit less than a year later, the smith called me and explained that he had thrown out his rotator cup (shoulder injury) which made it impossible for him to make swords. He had someone looking for a Claymore and they would pay 5,000 pounds for it, would I be interested in selling mine. And I said "No, this is something I want my kids to inherit."
[1] A place called Whitburn Arms.
[2] The exchange rate at the time made this somewhere between $3,000 and $4,000 USD.
Re: Archaeologists find 3000-year-old sword, exceptionally well preserved
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
Came here to say much the same thing. A great book that gets into the details of this is https://www.amazon.com/Inheritance-Rome-Illuminating-Dark-40... TLDR; people considered themselves "Roman", or something adjacent to it, long after the western empire officially disintegrated, and of course in the east it didn't really die. Even on the outskirts (e.g. Romano-British) people held onto Roman, Christian, and Latin c…
Polish nobility, stretching well into today’s Ukraine, was inventing ways in which they were continuation of imaginary outskirts of said empire.
https://brill.com/view/journals/joah/4/1-2/article-p28_4.xml