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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

cnn.com

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Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#621

Post by rascul »

vel0city wrote: post #577
winternett wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time I drove into downtown Manhattan, just inches form the bridge, I was immediately pulled over by NYPD and given an excessive $150 ticket for the window tints on my car. I demonstrated to the officer that Range Rover made them that way from the factory *limo tint" and that it was legal in my home state, but they had shown that they apparently have always had the inclination to pull people over for bogus mi…

I live in a state which has extremely lax gun ownership and open carry laws. I guess I should just be able to ignore all other state firearm laws when I travel based on your logic.

Not quite what you're getting at, but there is a Federal law known as the Peaceable Journey Law:

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926A

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#622

Post by muh_gradle »

rafram wrote: post #563
muh_gradle wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in NYC, have taken the tube when I lived in London. I've also lived in other cities like Seoul, Tokyo with superior public transportation. The "aesthetics" aspect that you describe is an incredible understatement. The nearest MTA station is covered in feces and used syringes and I'm not exaggerating. Trains are constantly late. Apparently building a barrier and a gate on the platform is a 10 year, trillion dol…

I have literally never seen a subway station “covered in feces and used syringes” - or even one single syringe in a station - in my life. How many times have you actually ridden the subway?

Have you ever visited the 155th station? Maybe you should actually try living in the city before talking. Or maybe Penn station which is next to the biggest methadone clinic in the city. If you think that I'm saying the station is literally covered from floor to ceiling with feces and syringes, then no that's not what I'm saying. But maybe you're just so comfortable with the griminess that it doesn't bother you.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#623

Post by ironmagma »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #600
ironmagma wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be making the argument there is no one like this. But if there is no one like this, what good will banning it do? I think we all know people find it, for one reason or another, more appropriate to take a car despite the already large cost of doing so in Manhattan. People aren’t just behaving completely illogically. If someone is driving, it’s not because they just didn’t even consider taking public transi…

> If someone is driving, it’s not because they just didn’t even consider taking public transit. And in the process, they are polluting the air, making busses run more slowly, and (on average across the population) killing pedestrians. On an individual level, this person may indeed have concluded that driving is better for them than taking public transit. For society at large, however, public transit is almost always…

Without ceremony, you have changed arguments. Originally you were saying those people simply don’t exist. As many a police investigator has noted, changing one’s stories is the surest sign of dishonesty.

But even if we ignore this, by induced demand, open streets will simply invite more traffic. The difference is the wealth distribution of the present traffic.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#624

Post by nemo44x »

comte7092 wrote: post #607
nemo44x wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent you replied to was talking about NJ and people in NJ who own cars being accommodated by NY. Your comment was about how people choosing to drive in don’t consider the cost of buying a car. I’m saying no one buys a car to drive in. They already have one because having a car is awesome if you live in NJ. 90% is just about everyone. There are poor people that can’t afford cars and also NJ has cities like Hobok…

10% is an absolutely huge number when we are talking about making public policy, you can’t just round that up.

What else do 90% of people agree upon? We should put 90% of transit funds to car things but we don’t. That 10% is basically over served when you look at it this way.

But yeah policy should be built around what 90% of people think. In this case it’s that people want cars. And it makes sense because they make life so much better.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#625

Post by Wowfunhappy »

ironmagma wrote: post #623
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone is driving, it’s not because they just didn’t even consider taking public transit. And in the process, they are polluting the air, making busses run more slowly, and (on average across the population) killing pedestrians. On an individual level, this person may indeed have concluded that driving is better for them than taking public transit. For society at large, however, public transit is almost always…

Without ceremony, you have changed arguments. Originally you were saying those people simply don’t exist. As many a police investigator has noted, changing one’s stories is the surest sign of dishonesty. But even if we ignore this, by induced demand, open streets will simply invite more traffic. The difference is the wealth distribution of the present traffic.

> Originally you were saying those people simply don’t exist.

Sorry, when I said "if you're poor, you probably aren't driving in Manhattan in the first place," I didn't mean to imply that zero low-income people drive private vehicles there. However, I do believe that the population of drivers in Manhattan is overwhelmingly higher income.

Separately, I believe that the vast majority of private vehicles should be banned in Manhattan anyway (which is what I meant by "if you are driving in Manhattan, you should probably stop doing that). If I was God Emperor of New York, I would close 4/5 streets in Manhattan to vehicles, and restrict the remaining streets to commercial trucks, busses, taxis, ambulances, and individuals who can park in handicapped parking spots. This would ensure that those who actually do need to drive can do so efficiently.

If congestion pricing gets us partway there, that's a huge win in my eyes.

> But even if we ignore this, by induced demand, open streets will simply invite more traffic.

Great, then NYC can raise the price. They should keep raising the price until the roads are clear. Then they should give that money to the MTA to improve public transit, and further tip the scales against driving.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#626

Post by zip1234 »

cyberax wrote: post #611
nayuki wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And individual people driving themselves is not a waste of human potential?

Nope. Because cars _save_ _time_. Car commutes are shorter than transit commutes in well-designed cities. But even otherwise, you don't need a dedicated full-time driver.

What do you consider to be a well designed city?

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#627

Post by _boffin_ »

agotterer wrote: post #305
steveBK123 wrote: post #282

My main concern as NYer is the governments inability to build transit, and not for lack of money. NY will find it relatively easy to institute a new tax on drivers, but will the billions collected actually make transit better in any tangible way? NYC is also hamstrung by having its streets controlled locally by our DOT, but our transit & bridges controlled by a state agency. We just caved (again) entirely to the tran…

Quite a few of our transit problems today are actually because of the choices Robert Moses made. However, he certainly is responsible for the rapid growth of the transit system and did a great job consolidating power and getting stuff done. * He had the chance to buy the land and put transit along many highways in queens and Long Island but said that people would prefer to drive so he passed on the opportunity. Acqui…

Just have to say that I love seeing that book mentioned. Such a fantastic book.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#628

Post by nimbleplum40 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #620
nimbleplum40 wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying “no one is driving.” Clearly they are or there wouldn’t be such horrible gridlock in lower Manhattan. I’m just very skeptical of the claim that congestion pricing in one of the densest urban environments in the world will “kill the city.” I work in lower manhattan (in a high-income field). I don’t know of a single coworker that drives into work. Most of my friends also work in lower Manhattan. None of…

So you never use cabs or Uber? My point is, which is definitely not being expressed well by me is that that are millions of exceptions and cost/convenience escalations that are going to impact lots of people and increase the friction and hassle of the place.

> So you never use cabs or Uber?

Rarely. Less than once a month.

I get what you’re saying, but there’s lots of friction/hassle associated with all of the cars too. Walk or bike around lower Manhattan on a weekend morning before all of the cars roll in. It’s so pleasant! No honking, no risk of getting run over at every intersection, etc. Biking especially is way better. And for those that do have to drive it’s way better and quicker for them too!

Every time someone drives into lower Manhattan they make life slightly worse for the hundreds of thousands of people that live or visit the area. I don’t want to ban cars, but I think it’s totally fine to discourage driving there.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#629

Post by rafram »

muh_gradle wrote: post #622
rafram wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have literally never seen a subway station “covered in feces and used syringes” - or even one single syringe in a station - in my life. How many times have you actually ridden the subway?

Have you ever visited the 155th station? Maybe you should actually try living in the city before talking. Or maybe Penn station which is next to the biggest methadone clinic in the city. If you think that I'm saying the station is literally covered from floor to ceiling with feces and syringes, then no that's not what I'm saying. But maybe you're just so comfortable with the griminess that it doesn't bother you.

I live in New York City, but no, I haven’t spent time in a random local station near Sugar Hill. Not sure why that would invalidate the rest of my experience. Penn Station is fine. Methadone is taken orally (as a drink) to treat addiction and no syringes are involved, so the methadone clinic wouldn’t have anything to do with syringes in the station.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#630

Post by nimbleplum40 »

mwbajor wrote: post #599
comte7092 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regressive if you ignore all of the other costs associated with driving. Drivers always love to make this argument, but it presupposes that everyone already owns and insures a car. At the end of the day it’s car dependence that is regressive.

NYC transplants always like to make this argument. I would rather see lots of smaller cars and more ridesharing services. I think that would be even better than trains. Its my unpopular opinion but I would say in an ideal world, get rid of the trains. NYC is a perfect place to roll out a driverless car taxi service. You can make it so that you don't need to own a car but when you're traveling with people there is no…

That’s not even remotely feasible. There isn’t nearly enough road space to accommodate all of the trips via train right now.
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