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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

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Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#591

Post by LeanderK »

stefan_ wrote: post #38
jmclnx wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I saw London doing that, I expected cities in the US to start that. I am surprised it took so long. I expected this because of the push of toll roads to make people use EZPASS. Depending upon the City, I think this makes sense. But, in the US, I wonder if this will cause another mass migration of people out to the suburbs ? In the US, people are more addicted to their SUVs than heron addicts are to their drug.

Migration to cities is whats causing this. When it was just black people homes you had to bulldoze to build your freeway straight to downtown there was obviously no concern. Now that people living downtown are rich and powerful they are starting to wonder why a huge chunk of prime space is reserved for storage of suburbian commuter metal boxes.

not only this, it just decreases quality of life in the downtown. You want less space for cars, less traffic, less noise, less pollution, less parking and more bike lanes, public spaces, space for outside dining on former parking places etc.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#592

Post by jprete »

steveBK123 wrote: post #334
agotterer wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few of our transit problems today are actually because of the choices Robert Moses made. However, he certainly is responsible for the rapid growth of the transit system and did a great job consolidating power and getting stuff done. * He had the chance to buy the land and put transit along many highways in queens and Long Island but said that people would prefer to drive so he passed on the opportunity. Acqui…

I'm well aware of his history, and it's always interesting to me how few bad things people can point to that he actually did.. when weighed against all the transit/bridges/tunnels/highways build under his watch. I mean the first thing is a crime of omission, made in basically every other city of the country - where have we seen land be purchased along highways to build transit done anywhere in this country? Even new…

> Also, you can presently get there by bus - https://new.mta.info/guides/beaches/jones-beach

That route is absolutely awful. For a typical NYC resident - not even "typical working-class" but anyone - going one-way is 75-100 minutes, two transfers, and around $25-30 per person, while carrying everything you need for the beach. Only the last 20 minutes are actually by bus.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#593

Post by [deleted] »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #589
agotterer wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few of our transit problems today are actually because of the choices Robert Moses made. However, he certainly is responsible for the rapid growth of the transit system and did a great job consolidating power and getting stuff done. * He had the chance to buy the land and put transit along many highways in queens and Long Island but said that people would prefer to drive so he passed on the opportunity. Acqui…

Where's this bus going? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnE08Dvx-Cg

[deleted]

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#594

Post by LeanderK »

nemo44x wrote: post #380
comte7092 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the point. Why does New York have to accommodate New Jersey and not the other way around?

Because people from NJ put billions into the NY every year via income tax (no reciprocity with NY, hell they’re even coming after new work from home people) and tons of tourism etc. Its in NY’s best interest to accommodate NJ.

but on the other side people living in NY have to endure it. You can not just make the people living downtown dependent on the woes of the commuters. I can not imagine driving into NY as a large share of commuting mobility to make sense...it's just too big and dense

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#595

Post by LeanderK »

joecool1029 wrote: post #275
Jolter wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should motorcycles have a discount? How big should it be in your opinion, and why?

Less wear on the roads (due to dramatically lower weight). Less space taken up, more efficient in urban scenarios. Tolls, especially bridge tolls, should scale with the weight of the vehicle.

I think the size of the vehicle is more important because the main issue is the congestion

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#596

Post by nimbleplum40 »

PM_me_your_math wrote: post #552
nimbleplum40 wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do your taxes go towards the fire department even if you never have a fire? (Subsidy) Do your taxes go towards the public parks even if you don’t use them? (Subsidy) Do your taxes go towards public schools even if you don’t have kids? (Subsidy)

Taxes are not subsidies. Good Lord

Sure, to be more specific - tax revenue can be used to subsidize services.

In the context of transit, people talk about transit not being able to “pay for itself” and needing subsidies. That money comes from taxes… so people who don’t ride transit end up subsidizing people who do (via taxes) in the same way people who don’t go to parks subsidize people who do (via taxes) and people without kids subsidize public school education of those who do (via taxes).

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#597

Post by mwbajor »

steveBK123 wrote: post #303
Hikikomori wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We basically need a modern era Robert Moses to consolidate NYC DOT/MTA/Port Authority and whatever other agencies and bring us into the modern era. Idk about that, maybe a less racist one. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_Broker https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...

Yeah, he was a terrible guy and all. But stuff got built. The current inability to build anything is almost a direct result. They delegated decision making to an alphabet soup of agencies at different levels of jurisdiction so it's impossible to get anything done. Because there are so many agencies, you can't for example easily put in a busway because you need NYC DOT, MTA, NYS DOT, city council and mayor to all be o…

The hate for Robert Moses by alot of NYC transplants is similar to the hate alot of "IFLS" type people have for Thomas Edison; its misplaced and overplayed.

You're right, I can't really think of anything important built in NYC after ~1955 yet we have a multitude of agencies that are supposed to fix things. The new congestion fees will not be used to build anything useful, perhaps another almost meaningless pedestrian walkway that will somehow cost $10billion to make.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#598

Post by nimbleplum40 »

josephcsible wrote: post #491
ricktdotorg wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Describing the NYC subway as "working great" is an amazing twisting of the truth. The only thing good about it is that it isn't as bad as public transport in Long Island. Otherwise, good luck going anywhere on time without having to add 30 minutes - an hour of waste just standing around. just to add some real numbers, we can look at the actual NYC subway data from MTA's march 2023 report[0] page 12: * ~3.7m subway…

In other words, if you rely on public transit to get to work, you can expect to be late about 4 times per month.

If you rely on driving through manhattan you’re going to be late much more than that! Or just leave a bit earlier. Same thing people do with transit.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#599

Post by mwbajor »

comte7092 wrote: post #209
bilalq wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more reason for NJ residents to take issue with this. In central jersey, it costs at least $20/person for a round trip ticket. If you go with your family or a group of friends filling a 5 seat car, the train costs $100 just to get into the city and then get hit with whatever additional costs you have for the next few subway rides. Gas, parking, and carpool bridge/tunnel toll prices don't add up to anywhere ne…

Regressive if you ignore all of the other costs associated with driving. Drivers always love to make this argument, but it presupposes that everyone already owns and insures a car. At the end of the day it’s car dependence that is regressive.

NYC transplants always like to make this argument.

I would rather see lots of smaller cars and more ridesharing services. I think that would be even better than trains. Its my unpopular opinion but I would say in an ideal world, get rid of the trains. NYC is a perfect place to roll out a driverless car taxi service. You can make it so that you don't need to own a car but when you're traveling with people there is no argument; a car is better however you get it.

I've lived in the NYC area my whole life and somehow, its always the people that just moved here from ohio or california that come up with the half-baked traffic solutions and push them.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#600

Post by Wowfunhappy »

ironmagma wrote: post #579
Jcowell wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the context of the area it does make sense. the Poor are majority in the outer boroughs and uptown manhattan with the only poor community I can think of near the area is in Chinatown and you would have to question: What is someone from chinatown doing with a car in FIDI? they’re not going to brooklyn since they would’ve taken the Williamsburg bridge or even the Queens Midtown tunnel. No way they’re looking to just…

You seem to be making the argument there is no one like this. But if there is no one like this, what good will banning it do? I think we all know people find it, for one reason or another, more appropriate to take a car despite the already large cost of doing so in Manhattan. People aren’t just behaving completely illogically. If someone is driving, it’s not because they just didn’t even consider taking public transi…

> If someone is driving, it’s not because they just didn’t even consider taking public transit.

And in the process, they are polluting the air, making busses run more slowly, and (on average across the population) killing pedestrians. On an individual level, this person may indeed have concluded that driving is better for them than taking public transit. For society at large, however, public transit is almost always the better choice.

By making driving in Manhattan more painful for individuals, we bring it in line with the real cost for society.

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