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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

cnn.com

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Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#491

Post by josephcsible »

ricktdotorg wrote: post #199
dotnet00 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Describing the NYC subway as "working great" is an amazing twisting of the truth. The only thing good about it is that it isn't as bad as public transport in Long Island. Otherwise, good luck going anywhere on time without having to add 30 minutes - an hour of waste just standing around. The discomfort and cost of public transportation would be at least somewhat tolerable if there was anywhere near as much of an emph…

> Describing the NYC subway as "working great" is an amazing twisting of the truth. The only thing good about it is that it isn't as bad as public transport in Long Island. Otherwise, good luck going anywhere on time without having to add 30 minutes - an hour of waste just standing around. just to add some real numbers, we can look at the actual NYC subway data from MTA's march 2023 report[0] page 12: * ~3.7m subway…

In other words, if you rely on public transit to get to work, you can expect to be late about 4 times per month.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#492

Post by cyberax »

rfrec0n wrote: post #439
cyberax wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's very misleading because you're starting from the supposition of EVs rather than the actual mix of personal cars. If we're talking about planning, then we should look at least 10 years ahead. By that time, most of new vehicles are going to be EVs. Mind you, the subway construction around here is planned 20 _years_ in advance. All the current proposed projects are going to be finished some time in 2040-s. > If y…

> One average US citizen produces around 20 tons of CO2 per year. A bus needs 3 of them working full-time. This completely dwarfs the emissions due to fuel use. Are you trying to say that these people wouldn't already exist without the bus? So everytime we commission a new bus, 3 fully grown licensed drivers appear in a flash of smoke from the storage compartment of the bus?

> Are you trying to say that these people wouldn't already exist without the bus?

No. They would be doing other productive things. But right now, they have to spend their productive power on driving buses.

This is simply a huge waste of human potential.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#493

Post by cyberax »

nimbleplum40 wrote: post #399
cyberax wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are also no unsubsidized fire departments, police departments, public schools, public parks, etc. My fire department, police, and parks are certainly not subsidized. I pay for them from my taxes.

That’s what a subsidy is my dude. The money obviously has to come from _somewhere_. Are you saying that if taxes pay for transit then transit isn’t subsidized?

> That’s what a subsidy is my dude.

Dictionary definition: "a sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive."

What I have is NOT a subsidy. I use the resources, and I pay for them.

I don't have people from New York paying for my fire department in Seattle.

> Are you saying that if taxes pay for transit then transit isn’t subsidized?

I use fire protection, and I pay for it. My neighbors receive equal fire protection. There are no subsidies, we all pay our equal share (based on the house value).

However, I won't benefit from transit that is being built (heck, it will make my life WORSE). Yet I have to pay for it, thus I subsidize it.

Clear?

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#494

Post by eyelidlessness »

durumu wrote: post #464
eyelidlessness wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m extraordinarily noise sensitive and I find this appealing for emotional reasons. But I don’t think it’s good policy nonetheless. IME motorcycle drivers are generally among the most respectful about the noise they make, relative to all drivers of all vehicle types. They scoot through and move on. I’d definitely like to charge drivers for their relative noise impact, but I’d start with the recreational sports car d…

In NYC specifically, by far the loudest vehicles are dirt bikes — people ride them through streets with absolutely no regard for safety or pedestrians, running reds and honking and revving their engines. I think what you have said is generally true in other US cities I’ve been to though.

I can definitely acknowledge this varies by location! I’ve been in Seattle for 20 years, and only in the last year or so have I come to terms with the completely superfluous sports car noise as a normal thing here, but it was everyday life in Virginia when I lived there the 20 years prior.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#495

Post by jahewson »

bradleyjg wrote: post #353
agotterer wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few of our transit problems today are actually because of the choices Robert Moses made. However, he certainly is responsible for the rapid growth of the transit system and did a great job consolidating power and getting stuff done. * He had the chance to buy the land and put transit along many highways in queens and Long Island but said that people would prefer to drive so he passed on the opportunity. Acqui…

Moses didn’t want black people going to Jones Beach (his pride and joy). To prevent them from visiting he built the overpasses on the highways that go to the beach lower so that buses from the city couldn’t fit. This is a true and interesting factoid, but I don’t see how it ties back to any transit issues. Unless you think buses having access to the northern and southern state would meaningfully improve regional tran…

It's actually not even true. It's become something of a popular myth. The original quote claimed "poor and lower-middle-class families" who in 1929 New York would have been predominantly white. That quote itself is disputed too, though it may well be accurate.

Funnily enough a factoid is something that is false but sounds plausibly fact-like.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#496

Post by nimbleplum40 »

cyberax wrote: post #493
nimbleplum40 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s what a subsidy is my dude. The money obviously has to come from _somewhere_. Are you saying that if taxes pay for transit then transit isn’t subsidized?

> That’s what a subsidy is my dude. Dictionary definition: "a sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive." What I have is NOT a subsidy. I use the resources, and I pay for them. I don't have people from New York paying for my fire department in Seattle. > Are you saying that if taxes pay for transi…

Do your taxes go towards the fire department even if you never have a fire? (Subsidy)

Do your taxes go towards the public parks even if you don’t use them? (Subsidy)

Do your taxes go towards public schools even if you don’t have kids? (Subsidy)

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#497

Post by eBombzor »

nostrebored wrote: post #475
isatty wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s never that simple. There are loads of people for which a personal or work vehicle is a necessity. Public transport cannot, and is never designed to catch every edge case. I’m all for better public transportation but strong statements and mishandled public funds just sways the support of the average joe.

It really is. Have you been in New York? In the area that this is being implemented in, you can absolutely survive without ever setting foot in a car. Other cities should have been planned around density. Instead we have suburban hellscapes where kids can’t be kids and there’s no real community. The car has been the single most destructive piece of mass-adopted tech for urban planning and lifestyle. If we have to sta…

Couldn't agree more. I moved out of LA to get the fk away from car culture. Now I live and work near dt Seattle where everything is relatively walkable, and my car is used at most twice a month for random things that I honestly don't need anyways. Obviously Seattle is not even close to a real walkable city like Amsterdam but miles better than LA.

Going back to LA, it is exactly what you describe. Just a concrete hellscape. There are stretches where every single peice of the ground has a layer of concrete on it.

Don't even get me started with Houston.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#498

Post by bobthepanda »

SllX wrote: post #355
Spooky23 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC can only do it if granted the home rule authority by the state legislature - which it has. In general, counties are pretty weak in New York.

You see, this kind of thing is why I led with this: "You can generally make two generalizations about local governments in the United States: they are local governments and you can’t make any other generalizations about them because everything depends on the State and sometimes a locality’s specific circumstances ." That is good intel though. I thought NY was a home rule state, but is that only for municipalities whi…

Effectively home rule exists at the mercy of state legislation in NY due to the current legal precedents around the state constitution.

One weird NYC thing is that it is the only city I am aware of in the US that sits above the county level. The five boroughs are the five counties and mostly used for administrative management, since four of the boroughs are million plus cities in and of themselves; but the boroughs have no lawmaking powers.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#499

Post by fooker »

insanitybit wrote: post #279
fooker wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>NYC, and Manhattan specifically, is one of the rare places in the country where having a car is almost virtually unnecessary. As long as you are okay with spending all your time in the city. The medium to long distance public transport for going out of the city is horrible.

> The medium to long distance public transport for going out of the city is horrible. Airports are far, but we have tons of buses and trains that take you out of the city (including a train that takes you to the airport).

>Airports are far

That distance would be a 15 minute drive almost everywhere else.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#500

Post by fooker »

MisterTea wrote: post #184
fooker wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>NYC, and Manhattan specifically, is one of the rare places in the country where having a car is almost virtually unnecessary. As long as you are okay with spending all your time in the city. The medium to long distance public transport for going out of the city is horrible.

Greyhound Buses and Amtrak don't count? I take the Amtrak to visit friends update and Maryland all the time. There's boat loads of stuff on long island as well, LIRR get you out there but it's not very walk friendly but awesome for biking.

>Greyhound Buses and Amtrak don't count?

They work as long as very few people take them.

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