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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

cnn.com

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Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#561

Post by rafram »

winternett wrote: post #425
returningfory2 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your points, but I don’t think they undermine congestion pricing. Even if you take all the congestion tolls and, like, toss them in the Hudson River, the program is still worthwhile. Just getting people to pay to drive into Manhattan is good in-and-of-itself.

The last time I drove into downtown Manhattan, just inches form the bridge, I was immediately pulled over by NYPD and given an excessive $150 ticket for the window tints on my car. I demonstrated to the officer that Range Rover made them that way from the factory *limo tint" and that it was legal in my home state, but they had shown that they apparently have always had the inclination to pull people over for bogus mi…

You have to follow the laws of the place you’re in. The place you’re from is completely irrelevant. They don’t let British people drive on the left in NYC because that’s their local custom, and they don’t let you have illegally tinted windows, either.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#562

Post by mastersummoner »

cyberax wrote: post #392
jrockway wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest, it's far from factual that dense housing is problematic in any way. It's just your opinion, and you're mad about it because you stand to lose the most in a world where you have to pay cash for your externalities. The sewer and water system to your house is subsidized. Snow removal from your cul-de-sac is subsidized. Most people couldn't afford the suburbs if someone else wasn't paying for those thing…

> Let's be honest, it's far from factual that dense housing is problematic in any way Densificatoin causes enshittification spiral. Each successive generation lives in worse conditions. This is an inherent property of densification. > The sewer and water system to your house is subsidized. It isn't. I'm paying for it from my taxes (that's why in Seattle my water is more costly than in the middle of a freaking desert)…

For the record, there are lots of people who love living in extremely dense urban situations. There are benefits to being exposed to so many different people living different lives, it's one of the things that cuts down on the bias of icky being exposed to an extremely homogenous group with homogenous opinions.

Obviously urban centers can be improved on, and many people living in them wish they had more personal space. But there are advantages too.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#563

Post by rafram »

muh_gradle wrote: post #320
whack wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've taken both the Underground and the MTA and you're overstating the difference. Aesthetically, the Underground is far better, no question. But most commuters are focused on functionality. And functionally the MTA is just as good, if not better. The trains run extremely frequently - every few minutes during the day on weekdays. The parallel local-express tracks give the MTA a big speed advantage. And the inside of…

I live in NYC, have taken the tube when I lived in London. I've also lived in other cities like Seoul, Tokyo with superior public transportation. The "aesthetics" aspect that you describe is an incredible understatement. The nearest MTA station is covered in feces and used syringes and I'm not exaggerating. Trains are constantly late. Apparently building a barrier and a gate on the platform is a 10 year, trillion dol…

I have literally never seen a subway station “covered in feces and used syringes” - or even one single syringe in a station - in my life. How many times have you actually ridden the subway?

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#564

Post by bob_theslob646 »

automatoney wrote: post #60

For those unfamiliar with NYC, street parking is free basically everywhere so the space cars take up is already heavily subsidized.

Can you please cite this because I don't think it's actually true. Park avenue is free but other areas charge you money per hour to park a car

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#565

Post by mike22 »

superseeplus wrote: post #229
mrkstu wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't address the underlying issue of family groups being priced out of transportation options altogether.

NJ Transit allows kids under 11 to travel free with a fare paying adult on weekends and holidays. MTA charges them $1 but makes the discount always available.

How do you get the $1 price for kids in 2023? Currently the rule is “Up to three children under 44 inches tall ride for free when they’re with a fare-paying adult.” https://new.mta.info/fares

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#566

Post by gWPVhyxPHqvk »

xyzelement wrote: post #456

It's a nice way for the city to make additional revenue, and to reduce driving by those who can't afford it. Let's be real, nobody drives into Manhattan when a truly better option is available, so the only deterrent this offers is how much of a pain $20 really is for someone. If I am a doctor or a wall street guy and driving saves me an hour a day, I am still gonna drive if that costs me an extra $20. If I don't make…

I’m a Wall Street guy (well, my office is nearby on Broadway, I’m a dev, but easily able to justify an extra $20) and the thing is that driving in is almost never faster or easier than taking the train! The PATH, which starts in NJ where parking in cheaper, goes right into Lower Manhattan, and it’s a short walk to the office from there. Every time I’ve driven into Manhattan it’s slower than taking the train, except nights or weekends. I really don’t understand the type of person who drives a personal vehicle into Manhattan during the work week.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#567

Post by rafram »

Spooky23 wrote: post #441
nimbleplum40 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re vastly overestimating how many people commute into lower manhattan via car.

If nobody is driving, why is it congested? New York City is the hub of a region that represents like a quarter of the US population. Like many other regions, you start cutting off the hub and the central business district dies. Commuting is one aspect. Tourism. Business meetings. Medical care. I live in Queens. Getting a family member to MSK for treatment or getting a meeting in the city via public transit is a 4 hou…

> I live in Queens. Getting a family member to MSK for treatment or getting a meeting in the city via public transit is a 4 hour odyssey.

I feel like I’m going insane reading this! There is nowhere in Queens that’s more than two hours from midtown Manhattan by public transit, and pretty much everywhere besides Far Rockaway is under an hour. Do you commute by car into Manhattan every single time? Have you ever actually tried public transit? If you think it’s a “4 hour odyssey,” you’re in for a very pleasant surprise.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#568

Post by xyzelement »

gWPVhyxPHqvk wrote: post #566
xyzelement wrote: post #456

It's a nice way for the city to make additional revenue, and to reduce driving by those who can't afford it. Let's be real, nobody drives into Manhattan when a truly better option is available, so the only deterrent this offers is how much of a pain $20 really is for someone. If I am a doctor or a wall street guy and driving saves me an hour a day, I am still gonna drive if that costs me an extra $20. If I don't make…

I’m a Wall Street guy (well, my office is nearby on Broadway, I’m a dev, but easily able to justify an extra $20) and the thing is that driving in is almost never faster or easier than taking the train! The PATH, which starts in NJ where parking in cheaper, goes right into Lower Manhattan, and it’s a short walk to the office from there. Every time I’ve driven into Manhattan it’s slower than taking the train, except n…

Likewise I've also never had a life where it made sense to me to drive in, but I recognize that others may.

Presumably their story sounds different than yours .

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#569

Post by rafram »

cyberax wrote: post #373
nimbleplum40 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have citations for those numbers? They don’t match what I’ve heard in the past so I’m curious to learn more. Also, everything about density in relation to quality of life is pretty subjective. Luckily, we have cities for both! You’re free to live in Houston while those of us that prefer dense urban environments can live in New York and take transit.

> Do you have citations for those numbers? Road wear scales as 4-th power of axle weight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law The average loads: https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/mobility/perso... The CO2 impact by transport mode: https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint Nothing I'm saying is controversial. Heck, even urbanists admit that, they just try to avoid talking about it. > Al…

If the extraordinarily boring, centerless, sprawling city that is Seattle is your idea of wonderful, you can have it! Young people are moving to NYC over Seattle because that’s the sort of city environment they want to live in.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#570

Post by rafram »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #272
kelnos wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car owners are already hugely subsidized. Toll roads cover only a tiny fraction of road maintenance. The rest is paid by taxpayers, even those who do not drive.

Could easily make the same argument when some city spends 3 billion to build a 4 mile subway extension. The fare recovery rate is absolutely terrible in the US. Expecting 100% isn't exactly necessary, but NYC is at 20%. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

The “farebox recovery ratio” of a road is usually zero. Roads are funded through taxes (with the exception of some toll highways). Why can’t transit be the same?
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