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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

cnn.com

41–50 of 700 posts

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#41
post #33

First we had segregated roads for the rich, then airports and and terminals, and now it's full on cities. Welcome to dystopia.

You’re allowed to come to New York. Just leave your car at home.

You're allowed to drive on the $10 a mile toll road, just use your credit card.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#42
There's an important concept to the success of city planning: the alignment of incentives.

When transit is faster and cheaper than driving, people don't drive as much. The individualistic personal freedom of the automobile doesn't outweigh those practical aspects of getting around. People generally make pretty logical decisions about what they want to do.

I'm definitely in favor of congestion charges in certain areas of NYC. If you're downtown in a car you are taking up some incredibly valuable real estate that could be alternatively dedicated to space for human beings.

I think about cities that have implemented taxes for disposable plastic bags. I find it somewhat hilarious how many people consider these policies to be anti-freedom government money-grabs. They make a libertarian's blood boil!

Even assuming those folks are correct, it doesn't really matter, because these taxes are incredibly effective. It's eye-opening to see how a nearly insignificant tax (literal pennies per bag) changes the behavior of everyone.

In cities with bag taxes, cashiers don't default to throwing your stuff in a bunch of bags, they ask you what you want first. Without the bag tax, some people who don't even have a strong preference to receive bags will end up with them just because the cashier put their items inside automatically. Then, customers start bringing their own reusable bags, use their existing backpacks and totes that they already own, and/or people will just carry a few items without a bag. The end result that the tax was going for has occurred regardless of how mad the individualists get: thousands of single-use disposable items stay out of landfills.

This is the same idea for congestion charges: people in NYC who might default to taking an Uber or taxi to get somewhere that's often the same speed or faster to get to on a subway or bus are going to think twice, because there's the psychological knowledge that their behavior is being punished, even if only by a few dollars or cents.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#43
post #11

I’m a fan of charging market efficient rates for shared goods. The congestion situation in the Holland Tunnel is awful and bleeds out into various streets of Manhattan as well. The cost of sitting in crawling traffic with aggressive drivers cutting around is probably much more than an extra $20.

I agree! Let's get the poors off the roads. The peasant class belongs on public transport, not on taxpayer-funded roads.

Yes, they do! Everyone should be taking public transit, the poor as well --and if they prefer private transport, then it's time to pay up!

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#44
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree! Let's get the poors off the roads. The peasant class belongs on public transport, not on taxpayer-funded roads.

Lower-income Americans already take the bus far more than wealthy ones, who are much more likely to be driving. A congestion charge will fall disproportionately on the wealthy, and allow the buses carrying lower-income folks to move throughout the city faster.

This isn’t exactly true. Rich people have the resources to live closer to where they work, they are more likely to WFH, they can ride a bike to work often, or maybe even walk. Poor people often live farther away from their jobs, they have worse commutes, and the likelihood of accomplishing that long commute by mass transit in many American isn’t that great.

Anecdotally, we are well to do, chose our house location to minimize our commute and make it easy by bus (and ensure we can go to the grocery store by foot). Then I got the opportunity to work from home, my wife has a straight shot from bus to her office downtown, the kid’s schools (even high school) are all within walking distance. There is no way we could have set all that up without money.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#45
post #36

So despite the massive ridership of the subway and the fully paid infrastructure and rights of way from 100 years ago, it can't throw off enough cash for modernization of its systems? And instead politicians decide to tax the successful mode of transportation, which is cars. Note that given the density and NY gas taxes, it is a certainty that cars in this area generate surplus cash.

I’m sorry what? Cars are the most subsidized thing in America today, you can’t speak of success when they get billions of blank checks handed to them in many different ways. See here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180092... Meanwhile public transit: https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/research-r...

From your first link:

> The true scale of social costs is rarely considered…

Yep, that is pretty much what I was expecting. Some hand waving and lecturing about qualitative, subjective externalities.

This is social commentary and opinion pretending to be science.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#46
post #42

There's an important concept to the success of city planning: the alignment of incentives. When transit is faster and cheaper than driving, people don't drive as much. The individualistic personal freedom of the automobile doesn't outweigh those practical aspects of getting around. People generally make pretty logical decisions about what they want to do. I'm definitely in favor of congestion charges in certain areas…

Libertarians are usually much more in favor of taxes to on externalities rather than outright bans. So I dispute your characterization.

I agree with the rest of the post though, I think taxing externalities is the right thing to do. Cars have gotten a gigantic subsidy for far too long. A car is allowed to take up 140 sq ft of land for free in one of the most expensive places on earth.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#47
post #6
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I agree let's fundamentally eliminate the right of free travel from place to place through the public thoroughfares on the conveyance of your choice. Because it's that pesky fundamental concept that we have of freely moving about through cities through county borders through state borders without being stopped and harassed that's actually the fundamental problem of it all. So instead of just pissing around and ba…

Your free travel is free only because its true cost is heavily subsidized and carefully hidden. Pay what it costs and you can travel all you want. I’m done with my tax dollars paying for your bad habits. “Free” my ass.

How are motor vehicles subsidized?

----------------------

Loosely enforced speed limits

Arbitrary setting of speed limits

Free, off-street parking mandated in building codes

Low Housing density induced sprawl and car requirement

Exempting pickup trucks and SUVs from emissions laws

Lack of vehicle safety laws to protect pedestrians and cyclists

Aftermarket products exploit a lack of regulations

Mandatory Insurance law: payout requirements

A mortgage interest deduction drives suburban sprawl

Tax laws favor car ownership

Tax formulas favor car commuting over public transit, biking, and employer van pools

Pedestrians have limited ability to sue drivers

Pedestrians can’t sue car makers for defects

Hit and runs are rarely prosecuted

Out-of-pocket car expenses don’t cover the cost of roads

.... Is this a good start, wussboy?

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#48
post #3

[flagged]

Yes I agree let's fundamentally eliminate the right of free travel from place to place through the public thoroughfares on the conveyance of your choice. Because it's that pesky fundamental concept that we have of freely moving about through cities through county borders through state borders without being stopped and harassed that's actually the fundamental problem of it all. So instead of just pissing around and ba…

> But we're talking about New York city so you've already granted the port authority wide latitude and restricting your movements and controlling the population.

This is a bizarre argument. Cars are heavily policed: they must be registered and licensed. The state tells you where you can park it, and your ability to operate it is completely controlled by the state and can be taken away from you. In order for car infrastructure to function, there is a huge increase in police presence in people's lives to enforce traffic rules, parking, etc. None of this is true of, say, walking, biking, or taking transit, all of which are pretty unregulated, even in New York City.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#49
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" At the same time, cities should develop bike stations and tramways for people to move around quickly in car-free areas, paid for by gas taxes, which should be raised, and road tolls, which should also be raised." Huh? If no one is driving who is paying gas taxes? Road tolls everywhere?

People will still drive, just not in downtown areas.

If you raise the price of driving higher the the number of drivers lower. Will the increase revenue from the pricehike overshoot the loss in revenue from less drivers on the road?

You've also effectively eliminated owning a car in the city. So now you're asking rural residents to pay for more expensive gas and more expensive toll roads while giving all that money to people living in the city.

I have a feeling politically that would be rather unpopular.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#50

So despite the massive ridership of the subway and the fully paid infrastructure and rights of way from 100 years ago, it can't throw off enough cash for modernization of its systems? And instead politicians decide to tax the successful mode of transportation, which is cars. Note that given the density and NY gas taxes, it is a certainty that cars in this area generate surplus cash.

Have you been to New York? The subway is the mode of transportation for nearly everyone and it works great. I wouldn’t say cars are the successful mode of transportation in New York at all
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